Is Tortoise-Breeding creating a Time-Bomb?

I’ve raised and bred dogs for near 30yrs , I’m probably done , not because it’s hard to sell puppies . if you really don’t care what happens to them after you get rid of them they’re easy to sell ….. if you are intent on finding them lifelong homes where they will be properly cared for , that’s a whole different story ……… I throw away a dozen or so p. manni eggs every year , because I know 99.9% of the time what the future holds for a $40 turtle ………. Of the 350,000,000 people in the U.S. I think substantially less than 1% is capable or willing to care for a goldfish for it’s entire natural lifetime let alone something like a sulcata …… there is a reason you don’t see many adults , and i'm sure most realize what it is ………… you need to get on the world wide web to run across the small group of people you see on this message board , at least I do , and you still see folks on these message boards with exotic animals that can’t even imagine providing veterinary care for an animal that may have cost $100 let alone a $10 red eared slider ……. Where I’m from I know of no native species of reptile that needs their population reduced artificially by the collection of wild caught animals for the pet trade …….. from what I see , peoples respect for life is not on the increase , there is always going to be a market for disposable pets …….

mark1 said:

I’ve raised and bred dogs for near 30yrs , I’m probably done , not because it’s hard to sell puppies . if you really don’t care what happens to them after you get rid of them they’re easy to sell ….. if you are intent on finding them lifelong homes where they will be properly cared for , that’s a whole different story ……… I throw away a dozen or so p. manni eggs every year , because I know 99.9% of the time what the future holds for a $40 turtle ………. Of the 350,000,000 people in the U.S. I think substantially less than 1% is capable or willing to care for a goldfish for it’s entire natural lifetime let alone something like a sulcata …… there is a reason you don’t see many adults , and i'm sure most realize what it is ………… you need to get on the world wide web to run across the small group of people you see on this message board , at least I do , and you still see folks on these message boards with exotic animals that can’t even imagine providing veterinary care for an animal that may have cost $100 let alone a $10 red eared slider ……. Where I’m from I know of no native species of reptile that needs their population reduced artificially by the collection of wild caught animals for the pet trade …….. from what I see , peoples respect for life is not on the increase , there is always going to be a market for disposable pets …….

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I totally agree with what you are saying. What I have come to realize is that I have absolutely no impact of their fate. Oddly goldfish may rival most turtles for an ability to grow old, so that's a bit cheeky a comparison. I often tell people Bearded Dragons are the best pet reptile you can get. When they ask why I refer to their relatively short life span. I always get an acknowledging smile, never once a scolding look. I think most people tend to be optimistic and rationalize that "it" will somehow work out. That one step further way off topic, is the competence of most people to parent. But that's another story.

I like these debatable topics when we are debating the topic and not each other, this is a really good thread.

mark1 said:

I’ve raised and bred dogs for near 30yrs , I’m probably done , not because it’s hard to sell puppies . if you really don’t care what happens to them after you get rid of them they’re easy to sell ….. if you are intent on finding them lifelong homes where they will be properly cared for , that’s a whole different story ……… I throw away a dozen or so p. manni eggs every year , because I know 99.9% of the time what the future holds for a $40 turtle ………. Of the 350,000,000 people in the U.S. I think substantially less than 1% is capable or willing to care for a goldfish for it’s entire natural lifetime let alone something like a sulcata …… there is a reason you don’t see many adults , and i'm sure most realize what it is ………… you need to get on the world wide web to run across the small group of people you see on this message board , at least I do , and you still see folks on these message boards with exotic animals that can’t even imagine providing veterinary care for an animal that may have cost $100 let alone a $10 red eared slider ……. Where I’m from I know of no native species of reptile that needs their population reduced artificially by the collection of wild caught animals for the pet trade …….. from what I see , peoples respect for life is not on the increase , there is always going to be a market for disposable pets …….

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I never could breed animals for sale at any large scale. I have bred animals, even sold a few, but generally it was to other breeders, not the public. Even then, I was often disappointed by the outcome. Now, I am not saying people who do sell don't care, they probably do. They just are more capable of handling those difficult situations. I fail at that.

I advocate getting rats as a pet for kids or for new time pet owners. Amazing animals. Smart, engaging, affectionate. Large enough to handle comfortably. Easy to look after. Cheap to look after. (I have developed allergies, no more rats for me, which is too bad.).

AND...what is another bonus...actually IS their short lifespan. They don't outlive their welcome, so to speak. At 2-4 years they die of old age (if they are healthy) before their owner gets tired of them.

I always read about people who mourn their dogs, saying that they don't live long enough...even if the dog makes it to 14-16 years. Well, sad as it is...a lot of people dump their senior dogs long before they are actually an issue (with old-age problems). What does that really tell you (about people in general)?

And I'm not a person who will drag out the life of animal until the bitter end either. I'm a proponent of quality of life. As long as the animal is happy, I am happy to put in a little extra work when possible.

I have several senior pets coming to the end (a cat, a dog and a horse). It's really hard - if I let myself get all mooshy about it, I'll have a good cry; but it just is. You have to balance sympathy with pragmaticism.

I also have my parrots, and now the tortoise. All of which have the potential to outlive me...so that's another concern. No seniors condo for me (er, when the time comes)...unless they welcome my menagerie!

Rue said:

I advocate getting rats as a pet for kids or for new time pet owners. Amazing animals. Smart, engaging, affectionate. Large enough to handle comfortably. Easy to look after. Cheap to look after. (I have developed allergies, no more rats for me, which is too bad.).

AND...what is another bonus...actually IS their short lifespan. They don't outlive their welcome, so to speak. At 2-4 years they die of old age (if they are healthy) before their owner gets tired of them.

I always read about people who mourn their dogs, saying that they don't live long enough...even if the dog makes it to 14-16 years. Well, sad as it is...a lot of people dump their senior dogs long before they are actually an issue (with old-age problems). What does that really tell you (about people in general)?

And I'm not a person who will drag out the life of animal until the bitter end either. I'm a proponent of quality of life. As long as the animal is happy, I am happy to put in a little extra work when possible.

I have several senior pets coming to the end (a cat, a dog and a horse). It's really hard - if I let myself get all mooshy about it, I'll have a good cry; but it just is. You have to balance sympathy with pragmaticism.

I also have my parrots, and now the tortoise. All of which have the potential to outlive me...so that's another concern. No seniors condo for me (er, when the time comes)...unless they welcome my menagerie!

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As I mentioned in another post, I LOVE rats. But yes, with any pet, lifespan (long or short) is a major consideration.

As for "extra" torts, how many here have collections of discarded torts but ARE NOT rescues with adoptions going on?

Very interesting thread.
There was just an article on Buzzfeed (https://www.buzzfeed.com/catferguson/a-reptile-dysfunction?utm_term=.wkEpa9WxY#.rbAxyQd5r) about the abundance and proliferation of Sulcata tortoise around the US in the last 15 or so years.
American culture is notoriously "disposable" when it comes to hobbies and pets, especially when trends or fads dictate the consumer spending. It will be interesting to see how many of these animals survive to adulthood, and if they are released in to the wild, how they survive/thrive there.

Kind of apples to oranges here but I was checking reptile rescues near me. I am in upstate New York. Many of them have a sign or note posted on their site they won't even respond to big iguanas or red ears. I too agree the sulcutta is the best example of the problem with its size and viability. So far I've rescued a turtle and tortoise.

I think part of the appeal of raising them from hatchling size is I get to actively control their health. Not get a pyramided mess, or a finicky eater. My hatchling hermanns eat everything they are supposed to cause I've actively made sure of it.

I'm going to attempt to breed Russians. Have a male and 2 females. I can see both sides of this argument. My main justification is that we are still capturing animals for the pet trade. I think the lesser of the evils is to have an oversupply of captive bred then deplete all the native habitats. I also feel the Russians size is and small clutch by sulcutta comparisons make them more responsible as pets.

The local zoo near me has a sulcutta, 2 redfoots, a wood turtle, some read ears and painteds. I've always figured late in life I'd leave the zoo or a rescue a trust if I was unable to find another suitable keeper. I'm only 29 now so no worries yet.

Will said:

ROI is better on two and three year old tortoises (purchased as neonates and grown well for a few years) than CD's or bonds or even the average stock.

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How are you calculating this? What species are you referring to?

This is certainly not the case with Sulcatas, leopards or russians.

mproko said:

I'm going to attempt to breed Russians. Have a male and 2 females. I can see both sides of this argument. My main justification is that we are still capturing animals for the pet trade. I think the lesser of the evils is to have an oversupply of captive bred then deplete all the native habitats. I also feel the Russians size is and small clutch by sulcutta comparisons make them more responsible as pets.

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I encourage everyone to breed their russians. I'd like to see a day when the demand for the pet trade can be met by private breeding and voluntarily stop importing because we just don't need them anymore.

I agree with your reasoning for wanting to raise a baby.

I would not count on a zoo to take your tortoises. They usually don't want anyone's surplus animals.

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Most zoos are governed by the AZA, and are unable to buy or accept donations of animals from the general public.

Yvonne G said:

Most zoos are governed by the AZA, and are unable to buy or accept donations of animals from the general public.

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Worst case 40-50 years from now I try to find a young person to take over for me when I meet my end. Only reason I posted this part at all is that I wanted to at least acknowledge that I considered that these animals will outlive me before purchasing them. Kind of the theme of the thread responsibility.

Tom said:

How are you calculating this? What species are you referring to?

This is certainly not the case with Sulcatas, leopards or russians.

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ROI is a pretty simple concept. If you put ten dollar into a system, it is the measure of how long it will take to get that ten dollars back. It can also be looked at in another way, real estate people use the one term to mean a few things. If I put ten dollars into a system, how much return does that system provide each year? That answer can come as $ or a %.

For a solar installation as one example, if the system costs $30,000 and our utility bill goes from $200/month to zero then the ROI is 150 months or 12 and a half years. Thereafter the utility bill continues to be zero and the cost of the solar is now gone, so at that point the ROI calculation changes. There can be other factors brought in that make the ROI more specific, like opportunity cost of the capital outlay, most simply balanced as the 'time value' of money, or whatever the simple interest rate is at the time, or more complicated as in "had you built a spare room on your house" could you have made more money on a monthly basis renting that room out. In both cases property tax will go up, and they both bring compromises to your home some aesthetic, some practical.

So now that YOU KNOW I KNOW how complicated this can all be I'll use a turtle example and then NOT answer your further questions about vet bills, cost of food blah blah blah.

Say you already have a turtle room or outdoor place. So like a house the initial capital costs is not going to be put into the calculation.

You buy three 'perfect' Burmese Star tortoises on day one of year one. You raise then 'the right way' with optimal conditions and you have three four to six inch tortoises one year later. That initial cost was say $900 to $1,200 each (both prices on Fauna right now). Right now also on fauna are three year hold backs ( I bet I could grow them smooth that big in one year) selling for $2000 plus. But let's keep it at three years for our ROI.

$1200 out at day one, $2000 back in at day 365 of year three (four years), That is $200 return a year on your initial cost, or about 25%(per year). 25% ROI and you can get short fingers and run for president. Well the tortoise took care, say I figure about $1.00/week as the marginal costs to care for them. Marginal cost refers to the added extra amount to the whole of my operation that is already up and running. That $1.00 a week is for all three.

So for all 3 that was $3600 out, and $6,000 back, less $208 (that $1.00/week) yields $2,192.00 or 60% over the four years. Now you can be a global banker.

And no damn kidding there are risks. Also and no damn kidding I was not talking about sulcatas or leos or russians.

Will said:

Buy low, sell high. That's what is happening in the US to a great extent right now.

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~ That is spot on!

Here's the other side of the coin coming from one of the natural habitats of the Greeks. Here in Turkey urban "development" grows like cancer. It seems even the most feeble credit line means you're entitled to an apartment, a car and a summer house. The summer houses are usually built in areas where torts (and other animals) used to roam. And then there are forest fires, all too common because somebody had been burning trash or simply had forgotten about their barbecue. Testudo populations are declining. Makes me wonder if breeding in captivity - in the right conditions - could provide a solution some day.

Kristoff said:

Here's the other side of the coin coming from one of the natural habitats of the Greeks. Here in Turkey urban "development" grows like cancer. It seems even the most feeble credit line means you're entitled to an apartment, a car and a summer house. The summer houses are usually built in areas where torts (and other animals) used to roam. And then there are forest fires, all too common because somebody had been burning trash or simply had forgotten about their barbecue. Testudo populations are declining. Makes me wonder if breeding in captivity - in the right conditions - could provide a solution some day.

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The credit line in your point reminds me of America. I always thought it was only my country that lived like that. But more on point, it's really sad to see all the habitat destruction taking place everywhere. I don't know if I was just oblivious as a kid, but every time I go to the zoo I can't help but read how most of the species are threatened endangered or extinct in the wild. It seems we are overpopulating the planet at the expense of biodiversity. When someone mentions they think zoos are cruel and animals shouldn't be in cages, I remind them of habitat destruction in the wild. I think 50 years or so from now a lot of the animals we took for granted will be extinct in the wild.

mproko said:

...but every time I go to the zoo I can't help but read how most of the species are threatened endangered or extinct in the wild. It seems we are overpopulating the planet at the expense of biodiversity.

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The zoos are WAYYYYYYYY over selling some of this. Some how the commies and socialists over here are winning the cultural war with their politically correct ideas and speech. Over time it has somehow become socially unacceptable and/or politically incorrect to keep animals in captivity purely for human enjoyment. Never mind how well they are cared for or what their plight would be in the wild. You are some sort of evil villain if you capture a "wild" animal and put it in a cage. Zoos have decided to bend to animal rightist pressure and so every species in the zoo is now part of some sort of global animal catastrophe and they ONLY way to save them is if that zoo keeps them there in captivity and does what it is doing. See; amassing some really cool animals, putting them on display in really well designed naturalistic large enclosures and charging admission to see them has somehow become taboo/evil/a plot of the capitalist Christian white male, etc.... But amassing the same really cool collection of animals, housing them in the same large well designed naturalistic enclosures and charging admission to see them is PERFECTLY fine if the zoo crams a conservation message down your throat all day and every enclosures explains how dire the situation for every species is all over the world. See; you are "supposed" to feel guilty about going to the zoo to see some rally cool animals that you can't see anywhere else, because evil humans are causing "Global Warming" (…oh wait, I'm sorry, they admitted that was a total fraud and re-named the same concept as "Climate Change") and destroying the entire planet.

Kristoff said:

Makes me wonder if breeding in captivity - in the right conditions - could provide a solution some day.

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You don't have to wonder. Captive breeding IS saving several species from extinction right now. In reference to "the right conditions": Private breeders generally have much more success than any zoo or "institution", but yet the government, AZA, and animal rights groups do a fantastic job of preventing private breeders from working their magic in many cases. We have reached a crossroads similar to what we have seen several times in the past in human history. It is damn scary to me to sit, watch and wonder which way all of this is going to go this time. "They" have lost every time in the past, but they have been patient and learned lessons from each defeat.

this is a reply to tom moreso than the rest. I didn't want to quote it all and clog up this further. I'll agree that zoos must promote conservation as a means to escape persecution/provide justification of self. Decades ago they thought we were heading to a new ice age in regards to global warming so I'll agree it's without merit. My point was to bring up that habitat destruction is destroying too many species. I can think of a couple turtles currently underpopulated cause too many people are eating them or their eggs. I think we as humans need to find a better balance before we loose more biodiversity. I'm not getting into the politics of commies or socialists winning. I'm merely looking at my hometown where a giant all brick hospital sits vacant, but they break new ground elsewhere for more medical offices etc. Regardless of viewpoints on political associations, I'd rather see them remodel that hospital or raze and build what's needed there, not keep changing woodlands and forests into more buildings while others sit vacant.

mproko said:

this is a reply to tom moreso than the rest. I didn't want to quote it all and clog up this further. I'll agree that zoos must promote conservation as a means to escape persecution/provide justification of self. Decades ago they thought we were heading to a new ice age in regards to global warming so I'll agree it's without merit. My point was to bring up that habitat destruction is destroying too many species. I can think of a couple turtles currently underpopulated cause too many people are eating them or their eggs. I think we as humans need to find a better balance before we loose more biodiversity. I'm not getting into the politics of commies or socialists winning. I'm merely looking at my hometown where a giant all brick hospital sits vacant, but they break new ground elsewhere for more medical offices etc. Regardless of viewpoints on political associations, I'd rather see them remodel that hospital or raze and build what's needed there, not keep changing woodlands and forests into more buildings while others sit vacant.

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No argument that we as a species need to tread more lightly in some cases, and that we've done damage in the past. I'm just making the point that the global situation is not as dire as some people would like us to believe it is.

http://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/3_times_sustainable

Breeding...
http://www.tortoise.com/id47.html