WORMS!!??

ZEROPILOT · Jan 29, 2016

A tortoise with worms is almost to be expected. However, when there is a load of worms so numerous that they are passed, still alive in the poop,
It is a big deal and needs to be checked out.
Normally only dead worms and eggs are passed in a healthy tortoise with a light parasitic load.

Have you ever fed Mazuri?
I feed my group Panacur as dosed by my vet mixed in with Mazuri or mashed banana. It is almost an irresistible treat. Even to a sick tortoise. Maybe something that you normally wouldn't offer a sulcata, like mango would work?
They are generally treated in two or three doses and your vet CAN administer them orally. So can you, but the procedure is something I've never been comfortable doing myself.
And thankfully my two roundworm outbreaks are from when I introduced new tortoises without a long enough quarantine.
It's not an issue that usually just arrises out of the blue.
I have no experience at all with treating such a small tortoise. Just in battling worms.
I wish you the best.

bethxyz · Jan 29, 2016

how much should a hatchling eat? Everyday I offer a variety of greens, etc. in a dish that is about 3" in diameter. Like I said, I have never seen him eat... and I stare at him a lot

He has pooped 3 or 4 times, never more than the size of a raisin. I've seen him asleep in the food bowl... so I'm sure he has eaten something, but I'll be darn if I know what.

bethxyz · Jan 29, 2016

ZEROPILOT said:
Have you ever fed Mazuri?

yes I normally put about 5 small pellats, moistened, in along with the greens.

I also offered a raspberry mashed up on the greens thinking something sweet would be too good to pass up. He didn't even touch it. Basically I make a dish of food and 24 hours later I throw it away and start again.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

MPRC · Jan 29, 2016

Have you tried finely chopping the food so that hopefully he gets more if he decides to take a bite? I do this with my picky tortoise.

bethxyz · Jan 30, 2016

LaDukePhoto said:
Have you tried finely chopping the food so that hopefully he gets more if he decides to take a bite? I do this with my picky tortoise.

hi, yes, thanks! The grass is as is, but weeds, etc are shredded. I wasn't doing that originally, but started a week ago or so.

ZEROPILOT · Jan 30, 2016

If he's pooping, he must be eating.
My baby RF always ate like pigs.

Az tortoise compound · Feb 1, 2016

Yes, based off the photo and description I would 100% de-worm the little p.p. leo. We can send you out a bottle of panacur if needed. Panacur is an over the counter dewormer used for horses. It is a cream that the tortoise can eat, directions are on the bottle and is based off of weight. Very easy to use. Its a mild dewormer and very effective. Like someone mentioned above, pin worms are common in tortoises. All tortoises have a certain build up of beneficial bacteria and worms that help their bodies function. When a tortoise has a weak immune system or is over stressed, these worms or bacteria can build up and not be beneficial to the tortoise. Also build ups can happen if tortoises are overcrowded and consistently eat other tortoises poo. Most every tortoises will need to be dewormed through out its life at some point. More so with tortoises housed outdoors then ones housed indoors. Freezing the substrate before using is the best way to kill anything that may be in the substrate. This is hard to do with tortoises housed outdoors. Also bird poo is the number one way tortoises get worms or problems. The birds like to drink from the tortoises water dished and in turn they sometimes get poo in the water. There are natural dewormers such as bananas, papaya seeds, pumpkin and a great many others that should be fed to tortoises throughout the year. We personally deworm all of our tortoises annually as preventative care. Keep in mind when deworming, it will dehydrate the tortoise a little. Soaking and proper hydration is needed while deworming. In a tortoises keepers arsenal one should have a microscope on hand, now a days microscope are cheap and a great tool to have on hand. Normally consistent runny stool is the first signs of a tortoise needing to be dewormed.

Diamondbp, sorry for the mixed results on previous purchases from us. We appreciate feed back and if anyone has a tortoise health concern we always want to hear about it. Not relaying information does not do either of us good. With feedback and discussion we are usually able to pin point areas of concern and work through things. Diamond if you want to send us an email and let us know what did good for you and what did not, maybe we can come up with answers and solutions and share husbandry tips and advise.

diamondbp · Feb 1, 2016

Az tortoise compound said:
Yes, based off the photo and description I would 100% de-worm the little p.p. leo. We can send you out a bottle of panacur if needed. Panacur is an over the counter dewormer used for horses. It is a cream that the tortoise can eat, directions are on the bottle and is based off of weight. Very easy to use. Its a mild dewormer and very effective. Like someone mentioned above, pin worms are common in tortoises. All tortoises have a certain build up of beneficial bacteria and worms that help their bodies function. When a tortoise has a weak immune system or is over stressed, these worms or bacteria can build up and not be beneficial to the tortoise. Also build ups can happen if tortoises are overcrowded and consistently eat other tortoises poo. Most every tortoises will need to be dewormed through out its life at some point. More so with tortoises housed outdoors then ones housed indoors. Freezing the substrate before using is the best way to kill anything that may be in the substrate. This is hard to do with tortoises housed outdoors. Also bird poo is the number one way tortoises get worms or problems. The birds like to drink from the tortoises water dished and in turn they sometimes get poo in the water. There are natural dewormers such as bananas, papaya seeds, pumpkin and a great many others that should be fed to tortoises throughout the year. We personally deworm all of our tortoises annually as preventative care. Keep in mind when deworming, it will dehydrate the tortoise a little. Soaking and proper hydration is needed while deworming. In a tortoises keepers arsenal one should have a microscope on hand, now a days microscope are cheap and a great tool to have on hand. Normally consistent runny stool is the first signs of a tortoise needing to be dewormed.

Diamondbp, sorry for the mixed results on previous purchases from us. We appreciate feed back and if anyone has a tortoise health concern we always want to hear about it. Not relaying information does not do either of us good. With feedback and discussion we are usually able to pin point areas of concern and work through things. Diamond if you want to send us an email and let us know what did good for you and what did not, maybe we can come up with answers and solutions and share husbandry tips and advise.

Thanks Andy, I sent you a PM regarding the hatchlings that did not fair well. Hope to hear from you soon and that all is well at that awesome compound

Pearly · Feb 1, 2016

bethxyz said:
how much should a hatchling eat? Everyday I offer a variety of greens, etc. in a dish that is about 3" in diameter. Like I said, I have never seen him eat... and I stare at him a lot He has pooped 3 or 4 times, never more than the size of a raisin. I've seen him asleep in the food bowl... so I'm sure he has eaten something, but I'll be darn if I know what.

I had a hatchling that was not eating for a while after being shipped to me. I started soaking Mazuri in real warm water (can use juice) until pellets very soft. Drained liquid, mash them up and served with pureed greens, or gerber baby food (whatever on your species' diet list). I was also serving fresh portions of food 3x day during that time. Also, make sure your baby is warm enough. Higher temps will speed up her metabolism and help her body deal with whatever is going on with her. I was using one of those smoothie blenders for the first coupld of months. Would sometimes just mix everything up and other times put every blended food (1/2 spoonful) in separate piles and watch my baby eat to see what he likes most. I was also putting some whole leaves on the side for them to practice normal eating and they did. Especially flatleaf parsley, raddicchio and romain lettuce. Later I started experimenting with other commercial tortoise pellets (soaked and mashed) and my picky eater seems to love them all. He prefers them over his greens. The pellets and protein (steamed shrimp especially) are his favorites. Your baby will be ok, just remember to keep him nice and warm (never below 80F) and 85F is target temp until he gets over his spell.

Pearly · Feb 1, 2016

ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1454364440.153424.jpg

ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1454364473.984397.jpg

these I have to use hot water and the they take a while before they are nice and spongy/soft

ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1454364549.909159.jpg

these are small and I noticed by accident that my baby likes them dry as a snack (kinda like we do chips)

ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1454365154.229513.jpg

example of very finely chopped breakfast, the green stuff is cactus with kale and spinach (it was spinach day), whole leaves on the side, brown mash is Mazuri and fresh flowers. I also used different fruits in small amts just to get his taste buds going

bethxyz · Feb 4, 2016

thanks so much for all the thoughtful replies - and a special shout out to Andy at ATC who has also been fielding emails from me as well! A little update: This little guy is still alive, although I keep thinking I find him dead when I go check on him. I've been chopping up food with a blender and he does have moistened mazuri pellets with that food... although I was just using room temp water to accomplish that, I'll heat the water a bit. He had a carrot puree bath two days in a row (in addition to a normal warm water soak) he did seem slightly more energetic after the carrot soak, but his energy has definitely dropped off from his arrive here. Yesterday he passed another worm and it is back at the vet to get the professional opinion on the matter. Today I mushed up banana with some kale puree and literally had him sitting in a dish of mash for about 30 minutes... he never took a bite. I begged, he didn't follow directions

I fear putting mashed banana in the enclosure due to what it will do to the substrate if he stomps that all over the place.

The temps in his enclosure are pretty high, now up around high 90's, with a spot around 102. There is a hid that stays cooler.

Not going to lie, we're worried about him

Having eating next to nothing, he is a little fighter though.

diamondbp · Feb 5, 2016

bethxyz said:
thanks so much for all the thoughtful replies - and a special shout out to Andy at ATC who has also been fielding emails from me as well! A little update: This little guy is still alive, although I keep thinking I find him dead when I go check on him. I've been chopping up food with a blender and he does have moistened mazuri pellets with that food... although I was just using room temp water to accomplish that, I'll heat the water a bit. He had a carrot puree bath two days in a row (in addition to a normal warm water soak) he did seem slightly more energetic after the carrot soak, but his energy has definitely dropped off from his arrive here. Yesterday he passed another worm and it is back at the vet to get the professional opinion on the matter. Today I mushed up banana with some kale puree and literally had him sitting in a dish of mash for about 30 minutes... he never took a bite. I begged, he didn't follow directions I fear putting mashed banana in the enclosure due to what it will do to the substrate if he stomps that all over the place.

The temps in his enclosure are pretty high, now up around high 90's, with a spot around 102. There is a hid that stays cooler.

Not going to lie, we're worried about him Having eating next to nothing, he is a little fighter though.

SOrry to hear that no real progress is being made. It's unfortunate. When you say that a hide is cooler, what temps are you describing as cooler? A sick baby should stay at least 85-90 plus degrees in all areas of their enclosure.

bethxyz · Feb 5, 2016

diamondbp said:
SOrry to hear that no real progress is being made. It's unfortunate. When you say that a hide is cooler, what temps are you describing as cooler? A sick baby should stay at least 85-90 plus degrees in all areas of their enclosure.

Originally the hide was around 80 - 82... and the general temp of the enclosure was high 80's to low 90's. Then I bumped up the general enclosure to mid 90's and the hide was around 85-87 (it always seemed about 5 to 7 degrees cooler in there)

bethxyz · Feb 5, 2016

Sad to report that the little guy, as feared, did not make it. Yesterday after I posted an update, he had blood on his nose. He did actually at least try to eat something because when I went to put him in his hide last night he had a leaf half in his mouth. He was extremely lethargic last night and did not make it through the night. I really do feel like we had the enclosure and conditions as near to perfect as possible. This was not a casual experiment, but rather was a long researched, long awaited addition to our household. We'll try again. I know people have mentioned that a certain number of hatchlings just don't make it, and on the one hand I can respect that part of nature, and on the other we want to be sure we did not do anything faulty on our end. My best guess is the flight here (AZ to PA) was just a stressful event and when he arrived, he just never settled in to start eating. Thanks again. Hope to back among the land of the tortoise owners soon. It was all too short this go around.

MPRC · Feb 5, 2016

I am so sorry for the bad news. Please don't give up. Maybe someone here can help you find a suitable breeder or rescue closer to PA.

Pearly · Feb 5, 2016

bethxyz said:
thanks so much for all the thoughtful replies - and a special shout out to Andy at ATC who has also been fielding emails from me as well! A little update: This little guy is still alive, although I keep thinking I find him dead when I go check on him. I've been chopping up food with a blender and he does have moistened mazuri pellets with that food... although I was just using room temp water to accomplish that, I'll heat the water a bit. He had a carrot puree bath two days in a row (in addition to a normal warm water soak) he did seem slightly more energetic after the carrot soak, but his energy has definitely dropped off from his arrive here. Yesterday he passed another worm and it is back at the vet to get the professional opinion on the matter. Today I mushed up banana with some kale puree and literally had him sitting in a dish of mash for about 30 minutes... he never took a bite. I begged, he didn't follow directions I fear putting mashed banana in the enclosure due to what it will do to the substrate if he stomps that all over the place.

The temps in his enclosure are pretty high, now up around high 90's, with a spot around 102. There is a hid that stays cooler.

Not going to lie, we're worried about him Having eating next to nothing, he is a little fighter though.

Couple of things just to be sure we are on this same page: 1) My Mazuri or Land Tortoise pellets are SOAKED (not just "moistened") and mashed up into puree. 2) I would definitely go for things like "Spring Mix" greens, or even Romain lettuce, kale is one of the more bitter greens, you can introduce those later, once he catches on with enjoying the food. 3) Have you tried Raddicchio? My babies find it irresistable (give some purreed and also put whole leaf down in his enclosure, mine live to chomp in that leaf. 4) I get it with the banana and substrate, I put food on large flat piece of slate stone, and even go beyond that by serving puree or all the diced stuff on large/sturdy edible leaves (collards or romain etc) I know! I know! It's too much! But I can't help that! That's a mom's instinct in me my babies still walked over the food and not around it flattenind my pretty presentation down... But that's ok, things are still kept clean and babies don't ingest stuff they are not supposed to. 5) one more thing before I forget, don't put any supplements in food (no calcium, no vitamins) until he gets going on his eating routine. Many babies won't come near food with calcium powder etc

bethxyz · Feb 5, 2016

Pearly said:
Couple of things just to be sure we are on this same page: 1) My Mazuri or Land Tortoise pellets are SOAKED (not just "moistened") and mashed up into puree. 2) I would definitely go for things like "Spring Mix" greens, or even Romain lettuce, kale is one of the more bitter greens, you can introduce those later, once he catches on with enjoying the food. 3) Have you tried Raddicchio? My babies find it irresistable (give some purreed and also put whole leaf down in his enclosure, mine live to chomp in that leaf. 4) I get it with the banana and substrate, I put food on large flat piece of slate stone, and even go beyond that by serving puree or all the diced stuff on large/sturdy edible leaves (collards or romain etc) I know! I know! It's too much! But I can't help that! That's a mom's instinct in me my babies still walked over the food and not around it flattenind my pretty presentation down... But that's ok, things are still kept clean and babies don't ingest stuff they are not supposed to. 5) one more thing before I forget, don't put any supplements in food (no calcium, no vitamins) until he gets going on his eating routine. Many babies won't come near food with calcium powder etc

thanks for the great advice!!
1) yes, soaked

and mashed... it is the exact same purple bag of Mazuri that you posted a photo of that have.
2) that little beast was offered every thing under the sun

The banana / kale bit was actually the first time I tried kale... I have greens that we grew for him, grass and dandelions, definitely did the spring mix, parsley, a bit list. He never ate anything that I could see. (sans that last leaf sticking out of his mouth) But I'll save kale for a little older, more adventurous eater next time.
3)Never tried raddicchio... but I will add that to my shopping list for baby #2!
4) The balance of feedings except for the banana bath (which really was almost as much of a soak as anything, since he just sat on the pile of mush) is in a dish that is ceramic. I do want to upgrade that to terra cotta for beak filing purposes. But in the winter is was oddly difficult to find the correct size terra cotta dish.
5) I didn't know to skip the supplements. At first I was putting the calcium sprinkles on the food.. but when he proved to be finicky I stopping adding in hopes he would eat.

I look forward to being on the other end of the table, and being an experienced tortoise keeper (just one, not a herd!) so I can offer advice rather than steal it. But in the meantime, I definitely appreciate it! thanks!

Pearly · Feb 6, 2016

I am sooooo very sorry!!!! I know the feeling! Right now I'm dealing with something similar, lost baby, the one that I put so much effort into at the beginning when he was not eating, then watched him flourish, and then lost him! On my watch! It's been cold outside! I'm really torn inside, it's been over a week. I'm so sorry for your loss. All the experience in nursing sick baby tort will come in very handy with another baby whenever you feel ready for trying again. You'll know how to be proactive and anticipate potential issues to counteract them preemptively. Again, I am so sorry for your loss

WORMS!!??

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