Conflicted on Vet Advice: Shell Biopsy

reflectedgray

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Hello,

I haven't posted in a very long while, mostly because things have been going well with my tortoise up until recently. The last six months have been rougher though. My tortoise fell off a badly placed rock in her outdoor enclosure years ago, which resulted in a minor spot of damage which morphed into minor / moderate shell rot. I got all of that treated when it happened, and since then it was okay. However, about six months ago I was giving her shell a gentle scrub with a toothbrush, and that revealed what looked to me like new rot.

I treated it myself at home for a couple of weeks using the silver cream / anit-fungals that could be acquired over the counter. Looking back I wish I brought her straight into the vet, since that didn't work. They told me that they would characterize her current shell rot condition as mild to moderate, and that it was still very treatable topically. They put her on prescription rounds of silver cream and anti-fungal every day, and that seemed to really help for a while. I did the full course of treatment for months, then stopped. All was good for a couple of weeks. I kept cleaning her shell as recommended, and during one of those times it seems like her shell was a bit flakey again. I got worried and brought her back to the vet.

That's when things started to escalate. The new vet she saw (the old vet went out on maternity leave) thought her beak and claws were a little long. Not definitively long, but she thought combined with the persistent shell issues it could indicate some kind of deep fungal infection or bone disease. I'm a bit skeptical of this, considering Delilah seems quite healthy and is eating / active. Still, we did shell cultures to be safe. The shell cultures came back negative for all the usual shell rot suspects and showed no bacteria. That's good, but we were still considering whether to move on to x-rays to make sure there wasn't a systemic infection that we successfully treated topically before, but was now coursing through her little body.

However, it took another week to get the full culture results. Once we got those, it showed penicillium. I guess that could just be a random environmental bacteria that just happens and has nothing to do with her overall health. OR, it could be a sign of some deep insidious fungal infection.

Now my vet wants to do both x-rays and a shell biopsy. That will cost about $1200 and she will need to be sedated and take mediation after she comes home. If it shows a fungal infection we will need to put a tube in her esophagus and give her more medication for months. If it was just about the money I would do it, though obviously its a lot of money. My confliction comes more from doubt about if any of this is actually necessary? I'm not doubting my vet's ability, but we haven't actually met due to COVID. It just feels like an awful lot to do to a tortoise that seems healthy besides the shell and was treated successfully (on the surface at least) for a mild to moderate case of shell rot. It feels really invasive, though obviously letting her keep getting sick isn't a good option. The tube in her throat would have to stay in for months, and I don't have a good enough understanding of tortoise pain levels to know how uncomfortable that would be for her. I have limits on how much i'd make an animal suffer to treat them. This all just escalated so fast, and I'm kind of wondering if I'm just diving head first into a sea of crazy because of what could be a random spore?

Does anyone have any thoughts when it comes to systemic shell rot issues, or following vet advice? My first thought is that I need to just do what the vets say, even if it turns out to be nothing, but I just don't feel like I have enough experience to really judge how necessary and prudent this all is. I don't want to think any vet would just rack up vet bills, but has anyone experienced things escalating so fast in an otherwise healthy animal?
 

Yossarian

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You are right to be skeptical, do you know the qualifications of the vet advising you? Are they a specialist with experience with torts? Generally I start getting pretty suspicious when vets suggest expensive and invasive exploratory options to diagnose an unknown condition, at that point I start asking a lot of questions and doing my own research.

So what are the exact symptoms the vet thinks this is necessary to diagnose? Are there any behavioural issues that make you think your tort might be unwell?

We need to see pictures of your animal. post them up asap.
 

Maro2Bear

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Yes, post pictures. I’m guessing - is this a RedFoot? That procedure that your vet is suggesting does seem over the the top. Maybe Dr @zovick can provide some of his sage advice.

best of luck
 

Yvonne G

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I would get a second opinion from another qualified tortoise vet before I'd go the $1200 route. I've been into turtles and tortoises for forty or fifty years, and while I haven't had much experience with shell rot, I've never heard of what you're describing.

Please take some good pictures for us and maybe we can help you.
 

zovick

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Hello,

I haven't posted in a very long while, mostly because things have been going well with my tortoise up until recently. The last six months have been rougher though. My tortoise fell off a badly placed rock in her outdoor enclosure years ago, which resulted in a minor spot of damage which morphed into minor / moderate shell rot. I got all of that treated when it happened, and since then it was okay. However, about six months ago I was giving her shell a gentle scrub with a toothbrush, and that revealed what looked to me like new rot.

I treated it myself at home for a couple of weeks using the silver cream / anit-fungals that could be acquired over the counter. Looking back I wish I brought her straight into the vet, since that didn't work. They told me that they would characterize her current shell rot condition as mild to moderate, and that it was still very treatable topically. They put her on prescription rounds of silver cream and anti-fungal every day, and that seemed to really help for a while. I did the full course of treatment for months, then stopped. All was good for a couple of weeks. I kept cleaning her shell as recommended, and during one of those times it seems like her shell was a bit flakey again. I got worried and brought her back to the vet.

That's when things started to escalate. The new vet she saw (the old vet went out on maternity leave) thought her beak and claws were a little long. Not definitively long, but she thought combined with the persistent shell issues it could indicate some kind of deep fungal infection or bone disease. I'm a bit skeptical of this, considering Delilah seems quite healthy and is eating / active. Still, we did shell cultures to be safe. The shell cultures came back negative for all the usual shell rot suspects and showed no bacteria. That's good, but we were still considering whether to move on to x-rays to make sure there wasn't a systemic infection that we successfully treated topically before, but was now coursing through her little body.

However, it took another week to get the full culture results. Once we got those, it showed penicillium. I guess that could just be a random environmental bacteria that just happens and has nothing to do with her overall health. OR, it could be a sign of some deep insidious fungal infection.

Now my vet wants to do both x-rays and a shell biopsy. That will cost about $1200 and she will need to be sedated and take mediation after she comes home. If it shows a fungal infection we will need to put a tube in her esophagus and give her more medication for months. If it was just about the money I would do it, though obviously its a lot of money. My confliction comes more from doubt about if any of this is actually necessary? I'm not doubting my vet's ability, but we haven't actually met due to COVID. It just feels like an awful lot to do to a tortoise that seems healthy besides the shell and was treated successfully (on the surface at least) for a mild to moderate case of shell rot. It feels really invasive, though obviously letting her keep getting sick isn't a good option. The tube in her throat would have to stay in for months, and I don't have a good enough understanding of tortoise pain levels to know how uncomfortable that would be for her. I have limits on how much i'd make an animal suffer to treat them. This all just escalated so fast, and I'm kind of wondering if I'm just diving head first into a sea of crazy because of what could be a random spore?

Does anyone have any thoughts when it comes to systemic shell rot issues, or following vet advice? My first thought is that I need to just do what the vets say, even if it turns out to be nothing, but I just don't feel like I have enough experience to really judge how necessary and prudent this all is. I don't want to think any vet would just rack up vet bills, but has anyone experienced things escalating so fast in an otherwise healthy animal?

@Maro2Bear and @reflectedgray Here is my opinion for what it is worth:.

What we call shell rot is NOT a systemic problem. It is a surface condition and easily treated with topical treatments as you have done. If there were shell rot severe enough to cause a secondary systemic infection, I seriously doubt that the tortoise would be acting normally as you have reported. Second, an X-ray is NOT going to show an infection, cultures show infections, and your was negative, so I have to wonder what the reasoning is for the X-ray. Were any blood tests or blood cultures suggested? Those would show an infection.

Sadly, it would appear to me that your "fill-in" vet is attempting to rack up his/her production numbers to increase income rather than treat your tortoise appropriately.

If that is NOT the case, then the vet does not appear to possess the necessary knowledge to treat your tortoise and you should look for a true exotics vet who knows what he/she is doing. Where do you live? And please post photos of this horrendous lesion which is causing the concerns.
 

reflectedgray

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Hello,

Thanks everyone for your responses. Its really nice just to have other people willing to think about this with me. I should have included more background info about Delilah in my last post. She is estimated to be about 14 years old. I got her as a rescue at about a yearish old from someone who surrendered her after she started fighting with their older tortoise (no surprise there). She was wild caught, in all likelihood, because her shell had some existing damage. Its always looked rough.

I've attached some photos. Obviously her shell doesn't look good, and you can see where its flaked off. My first vet was kind of unsure about whether it was shell rot at all since its pretty dry. She said it looked like heat damage, but based on my setup I don't think that's super likely. I went through every aspect of her care with my first vet who is experienced, and the only thing they said was amiss was a need for a more frequent calcium supplement. I've since upped that. The theory was that we treat her for shell rot and see what happens, then increase her calcium intake to try to improve her shell health generally.

We treated her, but I wanted to make sure it actually worked so I went back to the vet. The new vet thought the beak and claws might indicate some kind of bone issue, hence the x-rays. I've included a photo of her beak as well. We did shell cultures and blood samples. The shell cultures were negative for everything except penicillium. The blood cultures showed what could be considered mildly elevated white blood cells. I guess it was on the higher side of normal. It can sometimes be related to breeding cycles (not that i've ever bred her or anything) but I guess it could perhaps indicate a problem. They were not exceptionally high. It was within normal range but on the high side. She was a bit dehydrated as well, but that's probably because I took out her soaking bowl because of the shell rot. I'm going to make sure to soak her every day in a bucket and dry her off really well to ease that.

In regards to the photo. The damaged patch on the left side of her shell that's healed over was existing. There's some old damage on the top as well. The active spots are the bit on the right then you'll see the whiteish spot on the left. Its kind of a mess, which is why i've been working with the first vet to get it under control. You can see all the new growth on her shell which has been added since i've gotten her, and that part always seemed healthier to me. Maybe that doesn't mean anything though.

In terms of her overall health, she seems totally fine. Its pretty weird, there's like, zero indications of sickness. She's just starting to slow down for winter but she's been really quite active. She eats well, she drinks, she motors around her boxes. I dunno. I don't think she seems sick. That's why I'm kind of shocked that she could have some horrible illness.

IMG-1609 (1).jpgIMG-1610.jpgIMG-1611.jpgIMG-1612.jpg
 

Toddrickfl1

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Hello,

Thanks everyone for your responses. Its really nice just to have other people willing to think about this with me. I should have included more background info about Delilah in my last post. She is estimated to be about 14 years old. I got her as a rescue at about a yearish old from someone who surrendered her after she started fighting with their older tortoise (no surprise there). She was wild caught, in all likelihood, because her shell had some existing damage. Its always looked rough.

I've attached some photos. Obviously her shell doesn't look good, and you can see where its flaked off. My first vet was kind of unsure about whether it was shell rot at all since its pretty dry. She said it looked like heat damage, but based on my setup I don't think that's super likely. I went through every aspect of her care with my first vet who is experienced, and the only thing they said was amiss was a need for a more frequent calcium supplement. I've since upped that. The theory was that we treat her for shell rot and see what happens, then increase her calcium intake to try to improve her shell health generally.

We treated her, but I wanted to make sure it actually worked so I went back to the vet. The new vet thought the beak and claws might indicate some kind of bone issue, hence the x-rays. I've included a photo of her beak as well. We did shell cultures and blood samples. The shell cultures were negative for everything except penicillium. The blood cultures showed what could be considered mildly elevated white blood cells. I guess it was on the higher side of normal. It can sometimes be related to breeding cycles (not that i've ever bred her or anything) but I guess it could perhaps indicate a problem. They were not exceptionally high. It was within normal range but on the high side. She was a bit dehydrated as well, but that's probably because I took out her soaking bowl because of the shell rot. I'm going to make sure to soak her every day in a bucket and dry her off really well to ease that.

In regards to the photo. The damaged patch on the left side of her shell that's healed over was existing. There's some old damage on the top as well. The active spots are the bit on the right then you'll see the whiteish spot on the left. Its kind of a mess, which is why i've been working with the first vet to get it under control. You can see all the new growth on her shell which has been added since i've gotten her, and that part always seemed healthier to me. Maybe that doesn't mean anything though.

In terms of her overall health, she seems totally fine. Its pretty weird, there's like, zero indications of sickness. She's just starting to slow down for winter but she's been really quite active. She eats well, she drinks, she motors around her boxes. I dunno. I don't think she seems sick. That's why I'm kind of shocked that she could have some horrible illness.
It looks like damage from a heat Lamp/Source imo. What are you using for heat and how close is it to the top of the tortoise?
 

Maro2Bear

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Interesting. I’ll defer to @zovick & other DVM experts. I’m pretty sure most shell rot issues occur on the plastron, not up top there on the carapace. Looks like issues initially caused by a heat lamp, compounded by dehydration, etc.

Anyhow, I’m just rambling, but id be very leery about a $1200 expense....
 

Yossarian

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Beak is a bit long but that is easily rectified with a fingernail clipper. That is not a sign, imo, that there is an underlying bone problem. The shell looks bad, but mostly it just looks bad. Of course it isnt in good shape, but for russians that isnt that unusual, they are prone to deformations and can be very hard on their shells. It doesnt look like rot to me but I will defer on that to others, you have some very knowledgeable respondents here but I see nothing that would have me considering spending big money and stressing my tort further.
 
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Yvonne G

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Hello,

Thanks everyone for your responses. Its really nice just to have other people willing to think about this with me. I should have included more background info about Delilah in my last post. She is estimated to be about 14 years old. I got her as a rescue at about a yearish old from someone who surrendered her after she started fighting with their older tortoise (no surprise there). She was wild caught, in all likelihood, because her shell had some existing damage. Its always looked rough.

I've attached some photos. Obviously her shell doesn't look good, and you can see where its flaked off. My first vet was kind of unsure about whether it was shell rot at all since its pretty dry. She said it looked like heat damage, but based on my setup I don't think that's super likely. I went through every aspect of her care with my first vet who is experienced, and the only thing they said was amiss was a need for a more frequent calcium supplement. I've since upped that. The theory was that we treat her for shell rot and see what happens, then increase her calcium intake to try to improve her shell health generally.

We treated her, but I wanted to make sure it actually worked so I went back to the vet. The new vet thought the beak and claws might indicate some kind of bone issue, hence the x-rays. I've included a photo of her beak as well. We did shell cultures and blood samples. The shell cultures were negative for everything except penicillium. The blood cultures showed what could be considered mildly elevated white blood cells. I guess it was on the higher side of normal. It can sometimes be related to breeding cycles (not that i've ever bred her or anything) but I guess it could perhaps indicate a problem. They were not exceptionally high. It was within normal range but on the high side. She was a bit dehydrated as well, but that's probably because I took out her soaking bowl because of the shell rot. I'm going to make sure to soak her every day in a bucket and dry her off really well to ease that.

In regards to the photo. The damaged patch on the left side of her shell that's healed over was existing. There's some old damage on the top as well. The active spots are the bit on the right then you'll see the whiteish spot on the left. Its kind of a mess, which is why i've been working with the first vet to get it under control. You can see all the new growth on her shell which has been added since i've gotten her, and that part always seemed healthier to me. Maybe that doesn't mean anything though.

In terms of her overall health, she seems totally fine. Its pretty weird, there's like, zero indications of sickness. She's just starting to slow down for winter but she's been really quite active. She eats well, she drinks, she motors around her boxes. I dunno. I don't think she seems sick. That's why I'm kind of shocked that she could have some horrible illness.

View attachment 314130View attachment 314131View attachment 314135View attachment 314136
This is a wild caught Russian tortoise that NEVER had shell rot. They come into the pet trade looking pretty rough because of the way they're captured, kept and shipped. Do yourself and the tortoise a favor and leave her alone. After a mild beak trimming she'll just be a perfectly normal-looking wild caught russian tortoise.

You will never see shell rot on the carapace because it stems from the tortoise sitting all the time in wet or urine-soaked substrate. The plastron, but not the carapace.

(What you thought was new shell rot was probably soft, yellow new shell growth)
 

zovick

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Hello,

Thanks everyone for your responses. Its really nice just to have other people willing to think about this with me. I should have included more background info about Delilah in my last post. She is estimated to be about 14 years old. I got her as a rescue at about a yearish old from someone who surrendered her after she started fighting with their older tortoise (no surprise there). She was wild caught, in all likelihood, because her shell had some existing damage. Its always looked rough.

I've attached some photos. Obviously her shell doesn't look good, and you can see where its flaked off. My first vet was kind of unsure about whether it was shell rot at all since its pretty dry. She said it looked like heat damage, but based on my setup I don't think that's super likely. I went through every aspect of her care with my first vet who is experienced, and the only thing they said was amiss was a need for a more frequent calcium supplement. I've since upped that. The theory was that we treat her for shell rot and see what happens, then increase her calcium intake to try to improve her shell health generally.

We treated her, but I wanted to make sure it actually worked so I went back to the vet. The new vet thought the beak and claws might indicate some kind of bone issue, hence the x-rays. I've included a photo of her beak as well. We did shell cultures and blood samples. The shell cultures were negative for everything except penicillium. The blood cultures showed what could be considered mildly elevated white blood cells. I guess it was on the higher side of normal. It can sometimes be related to breeding cycles (not that i've ever bred her or anything) but I guess it could perhaps indicate a problem. They were not exceptionally high. It was within normal range but on the high side. She was a bit dehydrated as well, but that's probably because I took out her soaking bowl because of the shell rot. I'm going to make sure to soak her every day in a bucket and dry her off really well to ease that.

In regards to the photo. The damaged patch on the left side of her shell that's healed over was existing. There's some old damage on the top as well. The active spots are the bit on the right then you'll see the whiteish spot on the left. Its kind of a mess, which is why i've been working with the first vet to get it under control. You can see all the new growth on her shell which has been added since i've gotten her, and that part always seemed healthier to me. Maybe that doesn't mean anything though.

In terms of her overall health, she seems totally fine. Its pretty weird, there's like, zero indications of sickness. She's just starting to slow down for winter but she's been really quite active. She eats well, she drinks, she motors around her boxes. I dunno. I don't think she seems sick. That's why I'm kind of shocked that she could have some horrible illness.

View attachment 314130View attachment 314131View attachment 314135View attachment 314136
This is not shell rot. Shell rot occurs on the bottom shell, not the top shell. These spots could be old injuries or heat damage as others have said. You don't need to treat this tortoise with anything other than keeping the tortoise well-hydrated and making sure that the heat lamp is not too close to the shell to prevent future damage.

The shell looks really dry; you could put mineral oil or one of the other oils people recommend here on the TFO on the shell to make it more healthy and keep it from drying out so much.

The beak is slightly overgrown, but I have seen much worse ones. You can probably trim it yourself with nail clippers if you are so inclined. If not, I would find a vet who is competent and let the vet do that and nothing else. Your tortoise doesn't need all the treatments which have been suggested thus far. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 

Tom

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I agree with previous posters that this is not shell rot, and is likely due to overly dry conditions, overly hot lamps, and the typical wild caught damage.

I think a review of your husbandry might expose problems that we can help fix. Mind answering a few more questions? No charge.

Substrate?
Four temps? Warm side cool side, basking area, over night low?
Where are you?
Does the tortoise go outside in favorable weather for part of most of the year?
What size enclosure?
Diet?
What heating and lighting equipment are you using? What bulbs specifically?
 
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reflectedgray

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Gosh. Okay. I need to think all this through. Thank you so much for the fast replies.

I want to add that my vet didn’t use the word shell rot. I think that may have been my mischaracterization. The first vet thought it could be 1) heat damage, 2) a “shell fungal infection”.

When we spoke about heat damage the thoughts were a bit mixed. Delilah is outside in good weather on my deck and has shade access. I live in CA, so the weather is good most of the year. When she comes inside I used a UVA /UVB bulb with heat. The hottest spot used the get up to 90 degrees. It was about 1.5 feet from the top of her shell, which my first vet said was too close. I did that because I read that bulbs were most effective at less than 18 inches.

I’ve since switched to UVA/ UVB bulb with no heat and a controllable heat emitter. The bulb is further away and the hot spot now is only like, 83 at the recommendation of my vet. So it could have been heat.

For whatever reason my second vet has focused much more on a systemic infection or bone disease. The heat issues hasn’t come up in the same way, but she has notes from the first.

I spoke to her and expressed concerned and she said that she strongly feels that D’s shell is not normal and we need to figure out why. She said it could have been the topical infection that needs to be treated longer (penicillium, I guess) but if we keep treating topically and it’s something more serious it won’t be effective and we are wasting precious time. I’m definitely the kind of person who follows medical advice but this just feels so extreme.

I asked if she thought I could see a specialist for a second opinion. She said I could do that, but they are very hard to find and there are none in the Bay Area. I’d have to go to UC Davis. I’m not sure if this is true but I’ll look into it. She said she treats lots of tortoises, has one, and reptiles are her favorite category to treat despite the clinic focusing on dogs and cats.
 

Tom

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Mercury vapor bulbs are extremely desiccating. This might have been a contributor to the problem.

The basking area directly below the bulb should be near 100 degrees. 90 is not warm enough and 83 is definitely too cool. Here is how you measure it: Get a digital thermometer from HD, Lowes, or Walmart that records daily highs and lows. Get a small square of 2x4 or something similar in height and place it directly under the basking bulb. Rest the thermometer dead center under the hot bulb and let it cook. After an hour or so, I like it to be right around 95-100. If its too hot, raise the fixture. Too cool, lower the fixture. Or change bulb wattage. Or run the bulb on a rheostat to control the wattage that way.

A CHE isn't going to work. Its for ambient temperature maintenance, not basking. CHEs can be even hotter than regular bulbs and they emit deeper penetrating radiation than typical incandescent bulbs.

There are four elements to heating and lighting:
  1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
  2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
  3. Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in bulb types are both fine.
  4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html Here in our climate, you shouldn't need indoor UV.
 

reflectedgray

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I agree with previous posters that this is not shell rot, and is likely due to overly dry conditions, overly hot lamps, and the typical wild caught damage.

I think a review of your husbandry might expose problems that we can help fix. Mind answering a few more questions? No charge.

Substrate?
Four temps? Warm side cool side, basking area, over night low?
Where are you?
Does the tortoise go outside in favorable weather for part of most of the year?
What size enclosure?
Diet?
What heating and lighting equipment are you using? What bulbs specifically?


I posted my last reply before seeing this. Here are the responses:

Substrate: Inside, I use a 50/50 mix of dirt and sand with some coconut fiber to create more depth on the cool side. Outside she's on coconut fiber.

Temperature: INSIDE- Prior to the vet's concerns about heat, I used a mercury vapor bulb. The basking spot was at 90 degrees. It was pretty focused, so the rest of the warm side was more like 80. Cool side was somewhat dictated by the temperature in my house because I don't have AC. In summer sometimes my house got warm (80ish) but that was in the heat of summer at the peak of day. Usually its more like 65 -70. It doesn't get below 60 at night. OUTSIDE- Normal Northern CA weather. She had a shaded side, but my deck gets a lot of sun. If it was warmer than 90 in the sun I brought her inside.

Location: Bay Area of Northern California

Inside / Outside: She's outside a lot. I sometimes leave her out overnight in really good weather but usually I'll bring her back in when it gets dark. In the Spring - Summer she's out most of the time unless its too hot or raining. In Fall she's out in the middle of the day through early afternoon. In winter she's in a lot since its rainy or cold. I still try to put her out for an hour or two when warm enough.

Enclosure: Her inside enclosure is 24 by 48. Her outside enclosure is 60 by 30ish. She seems comfortable with both pens, so I don't think moving back and forth upsets her. She definitely is happier in her outside box.

Diet: Her food base is bagged spring mixes with no spinach (she won't eat any spinach anyway). I supplement that with whatever greens I have on a rotating basis (that are okay for tortoises). She likes arugula, dandelion greens, carrot tops, kale etc. I've been thinking that maybe I should be more diligent about what I add to the spring mix. Its typically one extra thing a week but I could do better and maybe chop them up in advance so she has more weekly variety. I add a calcium supplement with no D3 on top at recommendation of vet. She also has hay, but she typically doesn't eat much of it.

Bulbs: Based on the last response, this might be where i'm falling down. This is the bulb I used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Y9MBBFQ/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20. In the past I also used this bulb, but at a lower wattage I think: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00101JIFG/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20. I have a heat emitter to control nighttime temps and raise the general temp of her box in winter.

Do you think those bulbs caused the damage? I didn't realize that mercury vapor bulbs were so damaging.
 

Tom

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None of us realized how bad MVBs are initially. I used to use and recommend them. We learn as we go.

Sand should never be used for substrate. Its a serious impaction risk as well as a skin and eye irritant. Dirt can be okay doing on its composition. Coco coir is safe, but messy. Fine grade orchid bark works best for adult Russians.

Both of your enclosures are way too small. Each of them should be at least 4 times bigger. Minimum size for an indoor adult Russian tortoise table should be 4x8 feet. This might be a contributor to the beak and shell issue too, as small enclosures seem to go hand in hand with overgrown beaks and carapace growth anomalies.

Spring mix is not a good tortoise food, and Russians are not grass eaters, so the hay really serves no purpose.

I don't say these things to make you feel bad. I say them so you'll know what is wrong and how to fix it.

Give this a read. Diet, heating and lighting, substrate, enclosure size, and much more is explained. Questions are welcome.
 

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