Urate

Tom

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If you are soaking daily, never. I never see it from any of my babies.

If you do see it once in a while, its not a big deal.
 

Pure Tortoise Power

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If you are soaking daily, never. I never see it from any of my babies.

If you do see it once in a while, its not a big deal.
I do soak it every single day, twice a day even. But it still poops out the urates almost every day?! Does it have something to do with the diet?
 

Tom

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I do soak it every single day, twice a day even. But it still poops out the urates almost every day?! Does it have something to do with the diet?
How long have you been soaking daily? If the tortoise was kept dry before you go it, it may still be purging built up urates.

What is the ambient humidity in the enclosure? If the tortoise is drying out too much during the day, in between soaks, it could cause more urates to form.
 

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How long have you been soaking daily? If the tortoise was kept dry before you go it, it may still be purging built up urates.

What is the ambient humidity in the enclosure? If the tortoise is drying out too much during the day, in between soaks, it could cause more urates to form.
85%. The water vapours literally fill up the entire enclosure. If that's not enough, the hide is even more humid, and it usually rests in there.
 

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Maybe it's cos of the place I bought it from. To be honest it was an impulsive purchase. I remember that enclosure it was in was super dry. I doubt it was soaked more than once a week. It was pyramiding also. But I think the pyramiding stopped after it started becoming my pet. I bought it about 2 months ago. But that bad effect from the store couldn't have lasted 2 months though, right...?
 

Tom

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85%. The water vapours literally fill up the entire enclosure. If that's not enough, the hide is even more humid, and it usually rests in there.
If I recall, you were using a small enclosure? Do you have a heat lamp in there? Heat lamps dry things out tremendously. In a small enclosure they can't get away from the desiccation. Have you tested humidity directly under the heat lamp? What percentage of the small enclosure is directly under the heat lamp? This is one reason why I tell people not to use anything smaller than a 40 gallon tank to start a tiny hatchling, and why a 100 gallon tank, or larger, is better.
 

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If I recall, you were using a small enclosure? Do you have a heat lamp in there? Heat lamps dry things out tremendously. In a small enclosure they can't get away from the desiccation. Have you tested humidity directly under the heat lamp? What percentage of the small enclosure is directly under the heat lamp? This is one reason why I tell people not to use anything smaller than a 40 gallon tank to start a tiny hatchling, and why a 100 gallon tank, or larger, is better.
Oh so that's my problem. To answer the questions, yes, Small enclosure and heat lamps. Not quite, only on the cool side. About 50%. If I am gonna buy a bigger tank, what kinds do you recommend? I personally don't have time to build an enclosure myself. Also, mind posting some pics of the tanks recommended?
 

Tom

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Oh so that's my problem. To answer the questions, yes, Small enclosure and heat lamps. Not quite, only on the cool side. About 50%. If I am gonna buy a bigger tank, what kinds do you recommend? I personally don't have time to build an enclosure myself. Also, mind posting some pics of the tanks recommended?
I prefer to use closed chamber made from expanded PVC, like these: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/#post-1600958

If these are not available over there, then I'd get the largest aquarium I could find and close in as much of the top as you can. It works best of the lights and heat are all contained inside the enclosure and the top is closed. This will mean you'll need lower wattage bulbs, and that is a good thing too.
 

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I prefer to use closed chamber made from expanded PVC, like these: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/#post-1600958

If these are not available over there, then I'd get the largest aquarium I could find and close in as much of the top as you can. It works best of the lights and heat are all contained inside the enclosure and the top is closed. This will mean you'll need lower wattage bulbs, and that is a good thing too.
OK I'll look for a better enclosure for my hatchling
 

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If I recall, you were using a small enclosure? Do you have a heat lamp in there? Heat lamps dry things out tremendously. In a small enclosure they can't get away from the desiccation. Have you tested humidity directly under the heat lamp? What percentage of the small enclosure is directly under the heat lamp? This is one reason why I tell people not to use anything smaller than a 40 gallon tank to start a tiny hatchling, and why a 100 gallon tank, or larger, is better.
Tom, one more question, could the diet play a roll on the urate problem as well?
 

ariesxiao

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I do soak it every single day, twice a day even. But it still poops out the urates almost every day?! Does it have something to do with the diet?

Most urates are Calcium Oxalate. If your tortoise have too much urates. It means

1. the calcium in the food is not used by its body. You may need to consider to add D3 or expose it to higher UVB or sun light directly to increase the absorbance of calcium

2. Too much oxalic acid in the food. Spinach has very high oxalic acid along with many other vegs. Mature pad cactus also has high oxalic acid. Try to feed it with some grasses which have much lower oxalic acid

3. Some desert tortoise body has a mechanism to reuse the water in their urine. And they But their bladder will only absorb the water but leave the urates in the urine their bladder. Later the urates will grow larger and large and finally will be a big health problem. Those desert tortoises are designed by their DNA to use this function more and so they usually don’t like to pee. In this case, you should soak the tortoise everyday. Soaking can trigger the tortoise to pee. So it will have some chance to pee the urates out. Also try to increase the humidity. If the tortoise is not in a dry environment. Their bodies will absorb less water from their urine and will also let the urates will not be accumulated in their bodies but get out through pee.
 

Pure Tortoise Power

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Most urates are Calcium Oxalate. If your tortoise have too much urates. It means

1. the calcium in the food is not used by its body. You may need to consider to add D3 or expose it to higher UVB or sun light directly to increase the absorbance of calcium

2. Too much oxalic acid in the food. Spinach has very high oxalic acid along with many other vegs. Mature pad cactus also has high oxalic acid. Try to feed it with some grasses which have much lower oxalic acid

3. Some desert tortoise body has a mechanism to reuse the water in their urine. And they But their bladder will only absorb the water but leave the urates in the urine their bladder. Later the urates will grow larger and large and finally will be a big health problem. Those desert tortoises are designed by their DNA to use this function more and so they usually don’t like to pee. In this case, you should soak the tortoise everyday. Soaking can trigger the tortoise to pee. So it will have some chance to pee the urates out. Also try to increase the humidity. If the tortoise is not in a dry environment. Their bodies will absorb less water from their urine and will also let the urates will not be accumulated in their bodies but get out through pee.
Hold on, so at the third point you're saying that it's pretty normal that dessert torts pee out the urates?

1. The calcium supplement I give to my tort also contains vitamin D3, which wouldn't harm my tort.

2. I've never fed the high oxalic acid concentration food you mentioned. I feed my tort commercial tortoise food, which is mostly fibres.

3. As mentioned, I soak it every single day, even twice a day. The enclosure is literally almost filled with water vapour, it's a closed chamber. However, I still notice its skin and shell drying out. Perhaps my problem is really a Tom mentioned.
 

Tom

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Most urates are Calcium Oxalate. If your tortoise have too much urates. It means

1. the calcium in the food is not used by its body. You may need to consider to add D3 or expose it to higher UVB or sun light directly to increase the absorbance of calcium

2. Too much oxalic acid in the food. Spinach has very high oxalic acid along with many other vegs. Mature pad cactus also has high oxalic acid. Try to feed it with some grasses which have much lower oxalic acid

3. Some desert tortoise body has a mechanism to reuse the water in their urine. And they But their bladder will only absorb the water but leave the urates in the urine their bladder. Later the urates will grow larger and large and finally will be a big health problem. Those desert tortoises are designed by their DNA to use this function more and so they usually don’t like to pee. In this case, you should soak the tortoise everyday. Soaking can trigger the tortoise to pee. So it will have some chance to pee the urates out. Also try to increase the humidity. If the tortoise is not in a dry environment. Their bodies will absorb less water from their urine and will also let the urates will not be accumulated in their bodies but get out through pee.

One and two are false. This is not correct. Excess calcium is simply passed. It does not collect in the bladder. Likewise, oxalic acid has nothing to do with urate formation. Urates are formed as a by-product of protein digestion. The tortoise just needs enough water to flush the urates from its body.

Number three is also not correct. Urinary bladders do not absorb water. They can hold water, but they don't absorb it. And this is not a function of DNA or where they live in a desert, or not. All reptiles have the ability to conserve water during dry times. Mammals do too, although mammals don't form urates. Mammals just concentrate the urine more.

Your tips on humidity, soaking more and allowing the tortoise to pass the urates are spot on though! :)
 

Tom

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Hold on, so at the third point you're saying that it's pretty normal that dessert torts pee out the urates?

1. The calcium supplement I give to my tort also contains vitamin D3, which wouldn't harm my tort.

2. I've never fed the high oxalic acid concentration food you mentioned. I feed my tort commercial tortoise food, which is mostly fibres.

3. As mentioned, I soak it every single day, even twice a day. The enclosure is literally almost filled with water vapour, it's a closed chamber. However, I still notice its skin and shell drying out. Perhaps my problem is really a Tom mentioned.

1. No. This won't harm the tortoise unless you give it too much or too often. In that case, it will cause mineral imbalances, not stones.
2. Evidence to support my point. Look at the protein content in your foods. What is it? 12%? 15%? More?
3. Small enclosure + hot bulb = dry tortoise and low humidity.
 

Pure Tortoise Power

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1. No. This won't harm the tortoise unless you give it too much or too often. In that case, it will cause mineral imbalances, not stones.
2. Evidence to support my point. Look at the protein content in your foods. What is it? 12%? 15%? More?
3. Small enclosure + hot bulb = dry tortoise and low humidity.
Before buying a bigger tank, I have some questions.

Is the size of 2x4 feet good enough?
Is a glass tank OK?
 

Tom

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Before buying a bigger tank, I have some questions.

Is the size of 2x4 feet good enough?
Is a glass tank OK?
2x4 is okay as a minimum for starting a single hatchling, but it will only last a few months before it is too small. Why not start with something bigger and save yourself a lot of time, hassle and expense?

Glass tanks are fine to use, but you still have the problem of the open top with the lights on the outside to solve. You can build some sort of hood to close the top and house the heating and lighting.
 

ariesxiao

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One and two are false. This is not correct. Excess calcium is simply passed. It does not collect in the bladder. Likewise, oxalic acid has nothing to do with urate formation. Urates are formed as a by-product of protein digestion. The tortoise just needs enough water to flush the urates from its body.

Number three is also not correct. Urinary bladders do not absorb water. They can hold water, but they don't absorb it. And this is not a function of DNA or where they live in a desert, or not. All reptiles have the ability to conserve water during dry times. Mammals do too, although mammals don't form urates. Mammals just concentrate the urine more.

Your tips on humidity, soaking more and allowing the tortoise to pass the urates are spot on though! :)
Urates are of course caused by Oxalic Acid and the main contents are Calcium Oxates. If you don't believe me, you can feed your tortoise with spinach which has very high oxalic acid. It is not only harmful to tortoise but but also harmful to human. If you eat spinach too much, you will get urates accumulated in your body and fint tally get the kidney stone disease. If you don't trust me the human part, you can ask your doctor. I am a medical school student
 

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