I need some wisdom on my tortoise.

effpea

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Sandpoint Idaho
Hey y'all,

I have a tortoise that just turned 5 in November, named Ozzy. For about a year prior to getting Ozzy, followed by the whole first year of its life my husband and I were super dedicated to learning about and properly raising a healthy sulcata and have carried on everything we have learned over the years to date. Yet I'm still so perplexed by our tortoise and it seems to just be outside of everything I've read about juvenile sulcatas.

No idea on the sex. Every which way we have read, we end up unsure still. Years ago we thought boy, but I heavily think it's a female now because of shell shape. Wondered if y'all could offer some suggestions on sexing it or about when we would ever know? Only want to know for curiosity, by the way.

Also wanted to give you some specs on my tort and see if it's of healthy size for a 5 year old tortoise cause I honestly don't know and thus worry.
From tail to head its 14.5 inches. From side to side its 14 inches. From the middle of the belly all the way around its shell its 23 inches. Weighs about 16lbs and has huge legs, I'm talking nearly 4.5 inches around. The reason I ask is because I worry my tortoise does not eat enough. I offer it food multiple times a week and it never eats. To no exaggeration, it hasn't eaten in 6+ weeks because it simply doesn't want to, I assume. It just gets up and walks back to the corner and for naps. It's always so sleepy but then randomly one day it's up and active (still yawning tho lol) and eats a whole dunch, does it's business and finds a spot to go snooze again. Then it won't eat again for days and days or even many weeks. I still always get it up once a week at least for a warm soak and I offer fresh greens and mazury. It sits a while, looking around and then it leaves the food. When it free ranges the yard, it will stop to munch any poop it finds on the way to find a spot to dig a hole but it just won't eat anything I try to feed it nor any greens around the yard. Every bath though it will go under drinking water for what feels like a minute or more at a time. And always has a huge bm in the bath or lots of urine with some white powdery chunks.

I'm also concerned about it because it is just so lazy and it just does not like us, even after 5+ years of sweet talking it, taking utmost care of it and it absolutely wants nothing to do with us and acts so scared of us and always has. It even hisses at us and has since it was a baby! I really don't understand and wonder if there is anything we can do to make it come around to us? We had a sulcata before that passed away after one year (bad breeder, we still mourn him) and it was crazy active and loved us, always wanted to be handled and did so much! This one has never ever been that way. All it wants to do is sleep and be left alone lol

It has safe free range of the house often but never leaves the bedroom. It has its own space with a heat pad, uv lights and warmers if it wants but still it prefers to sleep right in the corner of the room head in or to goes under our bed, seems to be it's favorite place to hang out. Most often we could forget we even have a tortoise cause it hides so often.

Any advice or thoughts you have on my skeptical grump would be awesome. Pics for reference on size.IMG_20170307_121924_593.jpeg0128191039b.jpeg0128191040.jpeg0128191039.jpeg
 

Maro2Bear

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Welcome.

I’m guessing that you found the Sully Section - https://tortoiseforum.org/forums/sulcata-tortoises.88/

It’s hard in northern locations like Idaho, to keep them warm enough in Winter. Day light sunshine is lacking, it’s cold and miserable. If he’s crawling about the floor probably just not warm enough. Could use longer sun shine/light.

Probably could use a proper insulated night box - complete with a radiant heat panel, Kane heat mat, etc.

Keep soaking, keep providing Mazuri and other leafy greens.

Happy Torting
 

effpea

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Sandpoint Idaho
Welcome.

I’m guessing that you found the Sully Section - https://tortoiseforum.org/forums/sulcata-tortoises.88/

It’s hard in northern locations like Idaho, to keep them warm enough in Winter. Day light sunshine is lacking, it’s cold and miserable. If he’s crawling about the floor probably just not warm enough. Could use longer sun shine/light.

Probably could use a proper insulated night box - complete with a radiant heat panel, Kane heat mat, etc.

Keep soaking, keep providing Mazuri and other leafy greens.

Happy Torting
We just moved to Northern Idaho not even one month ago. Before that we lived in Southern California the entire duration of this tortoises life and it has always been this way. Even in high temp high sunshine days, it's just a grumpy skeptical tortoise that refuses to eat.

Did you refer me the link to post under sulcata section? Cause I think that's where I already posted this... This tortoise has e erything it needs for shelter and warmth and then some. That's not the issues. Our house is always 75 and it has heaters, heat pads, uv lights, and there's been plenty of sunshine. No one is miserable. The tortoise just wants to sleep for weeks on end and always has.

Not sure if you read my whole post, but after 5 years of offering my tortoise leafy greens and mazuri it still only rarely eats, like every 6-8 weeks or sometimes even longer. Is this okay??? How else can I get it to eat??

Any thoughts on if my tortoise looks adequate size and it's specs okay for its age?

If this isn't the right place to be asking these questions and conversing about such can you recommend where I could go?

Thanks.
 

Torta-geddon

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Most of the time if they are not eating it's because they're too cold, does he or she go outside often? If he does it's possible he or she is eating weeds and grass as he/she roams. If you want to find out the gender you should post pics of his/her plastron and his/her rear end, I don't know if it is big enough to show gender traits yet but it can't hurt to see.
 

Big Charlie

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I still think your tortoise is too cold. 75 is warm enough to keep it alive but he will have a hard time digesting food at that temperature. He needs a minimum of 80F. This is why he isn't eating.

A tortoise should not be roaming your house. Even if your house is 75, I bet that is up high, not on the floor where your tortoise is. Your tortoise is hiding because he doesn't feel safe. He needs his own dedicated enclosure with substrate.
 

LaLaP

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I agree on the heat issue. When your house is 75 you should try laying on your floor for awhile. It doesn't take long to zap the warmth out of you (and we are lucky enough to make our own heat). He may have the option to warm up on a heat mat or under a lamp but then as soon as he steps away... zap! You said he chooses not to be near the heat and not to eat and those go hand in hand. A cold tortoise doesn't want to eat and with few options for moving while staying warm he'd rather "power down" and nap.

He's very handsome! I hope he can feel better and his personality can start shining.
 

effpea

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Sandpoint Idaho
I still think your tortoise is too cold. 75 is warm enough to keep it alive but he will have a hard time digesting food at that temperature. He needs a minimum of 80F. This is why he isn't eating.

A tortoise should not be roaming your house. Even if your house is 75, I bet that is up high, not on the floor where your tortoise is. Your tortoise is hiding because he doesn't feel safe. He needs his own dedicated enclosure with substrate.
There's no way I can give this tortoise an encloser with substraight. I used to have it in a 12 foot enclosure for until it outgrew that. How big of an enclosure to you think I could put this tortoise in?? Did you read the specs I posted? Even our vet in southern California confirmed its totally fine for our tortoise to have its own bedroom to free roam. I believe it hides cause it wants to burrow. Again, our tortoise has always lived in southern CA and gotten plenty of heat and sunshine. It has specific set up of lights and heat in the room, that's not what it is lacking. It just doesn't eat hardly ever. It baffles it how it is as big as it is with the little amount it has always eaten.
 

effpea

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Here’s a post I made on the sanders of roaming the house recently. Please give it a read-
http://aminoapps.com/p/8qvjbb
I appreciate your post but none of that applies to us our our situation. Even IF our tortoise wanted to walk around our entire house at random, it couldn't. It has a dedicated bedroom. How big of an enclosure is a person supposed to give a tortoise of this size?
 

effpea

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Sandpoint Idaho
I agree on the heat issue. When your house is 75 you should try laying on your floor for awhile. It doesn't take long to zap the warmth out of you (and we are lucky enough to make our own heat). He may have the option to warm up on a heat mat or under a lamp but then as soon as he steps away... zap! You said he chooses not to be near the heat and not to eat and those go hand in hand. A cold tortoise doesn't want to eat and with few options for moving while staying warm he'd rather "power down" and nap.

He's very handsome! I hope he can feel better and his personality can start shining.
He has lights and heat emitters all the time. And even in southern CA in the heat this tortoise has been this way.
 

LaLaP

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I appreciate your post but none of that applies to us our our situation. Even IF our tortoise wanted to walk around our entire house at random, it couldn't. It has a dedicated bedroom. How big of an enclosure is a person supposed to give a tortoise of this size?
To answer this last question: most people with big sulcatas have them living outside year around and they have a heated night box or heated shed for them and a large fenced yard. He's getting big enough that (if he were active and healthy) he could do some serious damage in your house including digging holes right through your walls.

Maybe if you post a photo of his area in the bedroom we will be assured that he isn't too cold. I still think he is but maybe the photo will prove us wrong.
 

Big Charlie

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I appreciate your post but none of that applies to us our our situation. Even IF our tortoise wanted to walk around our entire house at random, it couldn't. It has a dedicated bedroom. How big of an enclosure is a person supposed to give a tortoise of this size?
In your first post, you said the tortoise has free range of the house. Then you said it likes to go under your bed. Is the dedicated bedroom for the tortoise your bedroom or does it have its own?

There is a thread on here somewhere in which someone dedicated a room of their house to their tortoise. They lined the floor with something waterproof, then filled it with substrate.

There are other people in cold climates who keep their large tortoises outdoors. They usually provide a heated barn for the tortoise and allow the tortoise out during the day, even in the snow.
 

TriciaStringer

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I’m so glad you found this forum. There are so many experienced keepers here to help.
Have you read this thread https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/ ?

We recommend it to all new members.

As many have mentioned, I also think he is too cold. They have to warm up to digest their food. If they can’t warm up, they don’t eat. Was he living inside in California or outside where he could graze all day? He looks gorgeous.

He really needs an area just for himself with only rare intruders coming in to give him food and tidy up. Is his room, your bedroom?

Also, his main diet should be grasses and weeds. What greens are you giving him?

I know you mentioned a veterinarian. Not all of them are good tortoise vets. If your house is 75°, the floor can be 70° or cooler because heat rises. The cold air is down on his level.

Although your tortoise is living and growing slowly, he is not in a situation where he can thrive. Do you have a yard where you can put a good size enclosure along with an insulated heated house? You can search Heated Night Box. @Tom has great ones posted for all of us to learn from and do what’s best for our big guys. Here is the one I made from Toms design. Even when it is in the 30s outside, his house is in the 80s.

Years ago, we were doing the same as you. During the winter, we would bring our tortoise inside when it got below 60. Now, I can’t believe we did that. I would keep him in our bathroom. We used the bathroom heater to keep him warm, not a good source of heat bc the majority wasn’t even getting to him. He stayed hidden and would get under things. He would not eat a lot. This forum helped me. I’m telling you this because almost every member on here was doing something wrong at some point in our tortoise’s life. The members here are giving you advice based on experience and what works. Please listen and remember that our main goal is to help your tortoise. We trully care for his wellbeing.
 

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vladimir

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@effpea

Here's a link showing the indoor setup for my sulcata. I live in Pennsylvania so he has to stay inside for the winter months until I can get him a better outdoor enclosure.

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/planning-new-indoor-enclosure.163087/

I highly recommend constructing a 4x4x2 night box based on Tom's design. If you were to set that up inside the tortoise's room, that would provide the tortoise with more space at the proper temperature to go and warm up.
 

Dizisdalife

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You tortoise is beautiful. It may be female, but can't be sure without seeing the plastron and tail. I say female because most 5 year old males would have displayed their manhood many, many times by now. The size and weight seems low for a Southern California raised 5 year old sulcata. Many that I see are 50-60lbs and 18-20 inches long. The lack of eating habits does explain the limited growth. I'll echo what others have suggested about heat. The most common reason for not eating is being kept too cold, especially at night. If it were my tortoise I would get the temps up to at least 85°F at the floor level of its enclosure and keep them there. This doesn't eliminate the need for a basking spot where the tortoise can warm up even more. I would also take a fecal sample to a Vet for examination. It is possible that a parasite infestation is interfering with its digestion. A build up of pinworms could explain some of the behavior you have described. Daily soaks in warm water (90°F) for 30 minutes or so may also help the situation. If there is a bladder stone developing the soakings may help the tortoise pass the stones. You may need a Vet to x-ray the tortoise to be sure there are no stones. I hope this helps.
 

Tom

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@effpea
What you have to understand is the these are a tropical species of tortoise. Our hot southern CA summers where temps are in the 100s during the day and low 70s at night simulates the "cold" winters they have over there. While you may feel comfortable walking around in light clothing when temps are in the 70s, these guys are experiencing the coldest of cold night temps that they've evolved to deal with. Down on the floor its even colder, as has been explained. Our relatively "warm" SoCal winters are wayyyyy too cold for this species. The trouble comes from the conflicting info you get from vets, friends and on the internet. Many people will tell you that they did it this way or that way, and their tortoise was "fine". Some of them are able to survive this cold somehow, but that doesn't make it good for them. Many of them don't survive it and they get sick or die.

Another concept to grasp is that most vets know nothing about tortoises care. There is no semester on tortoise husbandry in vet school. The only way a vet knows tortoise care is if they care for tortoises, as we do, and raise a bunch of their own over many years. Few vets have any tortoise experience at all. Most of the advice they offer comes from vet handbooks or websites that offer old, incorrect, outdated info, and help vets make money to pay their substantial stack of bills.

Providing a heat mat and warmer area is great, but in the wild where these guys came from, the whole world is a warm area. Anywhere they park is a warm area. The idea of having to seek out a warm spot and choose to sit there while disregarding other factors like cover and comfort, does not occur to a tortoise. The whole area needs to be the correct temperature at tortoise level.

How big of an area do they need? There is no scientific study on this. We will all give you our opinions based on a wide variety of factors. What I can tell you is that they will use as much room as you give them, and that much like a horse, tortoises are dependent on locomotion to keep food moving through the long gut. My adult sulcata pen is 8000 square feet, and they walk every inch of it. If I doubled it, they'd walk all of the new area too. Even an entire 12x12 room is on the small side, and keep the entire floor of that room at 80-85 day and night is a daunting task.

Based on size, demeanor and behavior, I'll also guess you have a female. They tend to get more outgoing as they gain size, but all of them are different with their own personality quirks. A picture of the tail and anal scutes may help to confirm this, but your tortoise is still just barely reaching the size where we might be able to tell. Ordinarily, with optimal care and a good start as a hatchling from the breeder, which seldom happens, they will reach this size in 2-3 years.

Addressing your problem now: Lack of appetite is usually due to cold temps. Constipation, parasites or bladder stones can also be factors in some cases. Joe's advice of warmer temps, long daily warm soaks, and a vet visit for an X-ray and fecal exam is the way to go at this stage. The x-ray can confirm or deny any sort of blockage, and the fecal exam can confirm or deny the presence and possible abundance of parasites.
 

Yvonne G

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He's not eating because he's not warm enough. Tortoises need to get their inner core temperature up to at least 80F degrees before food will digest in there. Without a dedicated spot that is warm enough for his species, he's just not warm enough clear down inside his inner core. What Maro2bear suggested - a heated night box - is a good plan for your tortoise. Allow him to have that bedroom as his space, but lock him inside a heated night box at night. He'll soon get used to going in there on his own.
 

effpea

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@effpea
What you have to understand is the these are a tropical species of tortoise. Our hot southern CA summers where temps are in the 100s during the day and low 70s at night simulates the "cold" winters they have over there. While you may feel comfortable walking around in light clothing when temps are in the 70s, these guys are experiencing the coldest of cold night temps that they've evolved to deal with. Down on the floor its even colder, as has been explained. Our relatively "warm" SoCal winters are wayyyyy too cold for this species. The trouble comes from the conflicting info you get from vets, friends and on the internet. Many people will tell you that they did it this way or that way, and their tortoise was "fine". Some of them are able to survive this cold somehow, but that doesn't make it good for them. Many of them don't survive it and they get sick or die.

Another concept to grasp is that most vets know nothing about tortoises care. There is no semester on tortoise husbandry in vet school. The only way a vet knows tortoise care is if they care for tortoises, as we do, and raise a bunch of their own over many years. Few vets have any tortoise experience at all. Most of the advice they offer comes from vet handbooks or websites that offer old, incorrect, outdated info, and help vets make money to pay their substantial stack of bills.

Providing a heat mat and warmer area is great, but in the wild where these guys came from, the whole world is a warm area. Anywhere they park is a warm area. The idea of having to seek out a warm spot and choose to sit there while disregarding other factors like cover and comfort, does not occur to a tortoise. The whole area needs to be the correct temperature at tortoise level.

How big of an area do they need? There is no scientific study on this. We will all give you our opinions based on a wide variety of factors. What I can tell you is that they will use as much room as you give them, and that much like a horse, tortoises are dependent on locomotion to keep food moving through the long gut. My adult sulcata pen is 8000 square feet, and they walk every inch of it. If I doubled it, they'd walk all of the new area too. Even an entire 12x12 room is on the small side, and keep the entire floor of that room at 80-85 day and night is a daunting task.

Based on size, demeanor and behavior, I'll also guess you have a female. They tend to get more outgoing as they gain size, but all of them are different with their own personality quirks. A picture of the tail and anal scutes may help to confirm this, but your tortoise is still just barely reaching the size where we might be able to tell. Ordinarily, with optimal care and a good start as a hatchling from the breeder, which seldom happens, they will reach this size in 2-3 years.

Addressing your problem now: Lack of appetite is usually due to cold temps. Constipation, parasites or bladder stones can also be factors in some cases. Joe's advice of warmer temps, long daily warm soaks, and a vet visit for an X-ray and fecal exam is the way to go at this stage. The x-ray can confirm or deny any sort of blockage, and the fecal exam can confirm or deny the presence and possible abundance of parasites.

I totally understand and appreciate your time writing all this. Sincerely, thank you. I also just want you to know that deciding to get one of these 6 years ago did not come lightly to us and we put nearly 1-2 years of research into it before we did. We have always had a high heat space to offer this tortoise and we have always followed everything we have been told or read on here. (my husband was on the tortoise forum day and night for the first few years) beyond that our vet was a reptile vet who only did house calls and specialized in reptiles for over 40 years, he was highly knowledge and taught us a lot. I feel often times people assume that we've blindly talked to a dog vet and looked up info from petco on our tortoise when this is just not the case.

My concerns stem from the fact that I have done everything you mentioned above and no matter how much this tortoise has been cared for, example would be, that even in the couple years of its life when it had a huge tank and heat and moisture that met every requirement, it still rarely wanted to eat. And even now, when we put it into its heat space it will stay there and sleep until I take I move, even with temps in the 90s. I'm really not trying to argue I'm just trying to drive the point home that no matter how much we try to do the right thing for it, it just seems our tortoise is extremely picky and very grumpy. Or maybe the right things aren't all lined up accurately and it just needs to stay in a heat box round the clock? I don't know which dots need to be connected.

My concerns are also mostly just wondering if it is the right size for it's age despite the fact that for all of its life its not cared to eat a whole lot. It's patterns have always been to sleep for 3-4 weeks then wake up and binge eat (like a lot) and then retreat back to its space. It will go into its heat area for sure, but it doesn't seem to stay there, it will move and go to the corner and want to stay in the corner and sleep so I'll move it's heat to there. It doesn't seem to care to stay in the heat space, it just likes the corner of the room where it tries to burrow into the wall lol (it can't get thru) or it will go to the heat mats and sleep under a space. Also whenever I put it in a warm bath it always urinated and poops. It's always had very healthy bms.

I'll post more in a few info in a minute but I added some photos of the belly and tail and backside.
 

effpea

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In California was he inside or outside?
Inside at night in its heat space and outdoor during the day with sunshine. The tortoise would go straight for the wood pile in the side yard (not even in a sunny space) and burrow into it and sleep there all day. It had no interest in all the wild fresh grasses then nor did it want to eat the food we offered it.

I'm not doubting that my tortoise could be warmer. But I'm saying that we have always had spaces set up that we put this tortoise into for proper warmth and light and have during its entire life to help keep it warm which is great and helpful, however, my tortoise has always had an eating schedule of not eat for very long periods of time and then just binging.

What I'm trying to understand if my tortoise is the accurate size for its age and if it looks healthy? Cause what I'm trying to understand is how abnormal my tortoise seems (compared to others yet consistently the same for itself) in relation to everything I have read... Which tells me something is going right since this tortoise is this big and is growing. It is always gaining weight. Although it last weighed 16lbs in August of this past year, I need to weigh it again now. It's grown 2 inches in shell since summer.

Anyway, thank you for the help.
 
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