Tortoise Nest Temperature Data Collection

Tom

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I'm pleased to announce an "experiment" that I've been interested in for a long time. Everyone seems to have trouble artificially incubating South African tortoise species, yet the babies seem to have no trouble hatching out of the ground after 12-18 months in any variety of "Mediterranean" climates. Clearly, there are elements we don't understand, and the purpose of this data collection is to help us understand at least one of those elements and possibly draw some inference to some of the other under-understood elements.

I don't know that I would have ever gotten around to following through and getting this one done if it were left to me. At this point I must give credit where it is due. @Sterant decided to include me in his new Chersina Angulata Working Group. Solving the mysteries of this species and understanding how to get adults, eggs, and hatchlings to survive and thrive, and also starting a studbook for the species, are the priorities of the group. I can't thank Dan enough for including me, and renewing my passion for the species. The conversations I've had with Dan over the last year have contributed to much study and learning on my part, and gathering pieces to this puzzle has become a new obsession for me. Which is what brings me to:

@Markw84 and I are both students of tortoise biology and physiology. Mark has contributed greatly to my tortoise knowledge in several areas, but particularly in incubation technique and theory. We've had many conversations about night temp drops, gas exchange, moisture and humidity, diapause, and more. He and I both experiment with many of these factors and are trying to learn more. Anyone who enjoys reading this thread and learning about this subject needs to directly thank Mark. He is the one who finally made this happen.

What is this all about? This:
IMG_7413.JPG

That little thing that is double bagged and wrapped in blue duct tape and hanging under the monkey hut is a data logger. It records the temperature. It takes a reading every 10 minutes and stores it in its memory. In about a year, we will pull it out from its always shaded location, unwrap it, plug it into the computer and it will tell us the temperature in that spot for the last year. Why do we care about that? Because it gives us a local ambient temperature to compare to the readings from the other two data loggers. :)


Know what this is?
IMG_7414.JPG
Its a nest hole dug by an adult female South African Leopard tortoise. She dug a full nest hole and then walked away from it without dropping her eggs. Then it rained for a day. I dug out the loose stuff that the rain washed into the hole and took this measurement:
IMG_7422.JPG
It was difficult to get the camera lens at the right level, but the nest is about 9" deep when its filled back in.


Data loggers 2 and 3 were also double bagged and then put into these little Tupperware containers. Then I taped some hay string to the containers to make them easier to find and retrieve after a year. Here it is in the hole:
IMG_7424.JPG

And covered back up:
IMG_7426.JPG

Here is where she went and finally laid her eggs the next day:
IMG_7428.JPG


Here is a pic showing the whole area. There are nests under each of the little baskets in this picture and our data logger is in the hole near the stump down there:
IMG_7429.JPG


More to come in the next post...
 

Tom

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The third data logger also went into the same kind of Tupperware container, but I buried it in the same spot where one of my platynota nested last year. It was easy to dig out and I could feel the "bottom" where the female had dug down last year. This nest is shallower at about 6-6.5 inches deep.IMG_7430.JPG

IMG_7435.JPG

IMG_7438.JPG


These three data loggers belong to Mark. He set them up and "calibrated" them and then mailed them to me ready-to-go. All I had to do was put them in the ground. They went into the ground on December 9th, 2018. I figure we will dig them up around Christmas of 2019 and see what we've got. This will give us a complete picture of day and night temps, at these depths and at the surface for a full year with all four seasons. Of particular interest to me, Mark and Dan, is the day to night fluctuations during my scorching hot summers where day temps are almost always around 100 with spikes to 110-115 some days, and nights typically drop into the mid 60s. Also of interest will be the winter night lows in these nests, when above ground temps drop below freezing on occasion, followed by cold days in the 50s or low 60s.

It will be a year before we have any data to discuss, but I figured it would be fun to show everyone, and possibly a good conversation starter for anyone interested in the subject matter.
 

Tom

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It's interesting for sure.
Just wondering though why you didn't bury one of the data loggers in with a nest of eggs?
I don't want to disturb a nest and I'm not sure I could rebury it as well as the mom to give it 18 months of protection against the elements. And also because there isn't enough room to fit the container and the eggs. I don't want the logger on top of, or under the eggs. I wanted it sitting about where the eggs would be sitting. Just dumb luck that my girl dug me a perfect hole at the exact same depth that they lay their eggs.
 

Markw84

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It has always been frustrating to me that such information is not available anywhere I can find. I have it for sea turtles. But I have never seen it for any tortoise species. It seems such a basic and easy to do experiment towards understanding incubation temperature needs. I do not live in an area where I can successfully ground hatch tortoise eggs. So when Tom and I continually discussed platynota and pardalis "pardalis" incubation and saw some pardalis he ground hatched, it became an obvious test at his ranch. So far, I have not been able to locate anyone in Mayanmar I can send data logger to for actual nest study in their home range. I have pictures of nest locations in the wide open spaces of the wildlife preserve there that has the largest population of breeding platynota. Looks quite similar to the nest locations Tom is using for this experiment.

Burmese nesting area at Minzontaung.jpg

We have all the meteorological data for the areas in the heart of the ranges of the species we are interested in. Here is the information for the heart of platynota natural range right now in the middle of egg laying (and diapause) season.

Natogyi dec weather.jpg

So if we can get data on how ground (nest) temperatures compare to ambient weather data for the same day, we can look at similar periods of daily ho/lows and extrapolate actual temperatures in a nest for species by knowing only weather data from their natural range.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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The number of times I have brought these topics up, written out experimental protocol here on TFO, and found sci.lit on the topic makes me think you don't read posts so well guys.

Even Berekely (if I got that right) who ground hatches Manouria been doing tis for a a few years now. Your Edison to my Tesla Tom.
 

Markw84

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The number of times I have brought these topics up, written out experimental protocol here on TFO, and found sci.lit on the topic makes me think you don't read posts so well guys.

Even Berekely (if I got that right) who ground hatches Manouria been doing tis for a a few years now. Your Edison to my Tesla Tom.

Perhaps you can link some? I go through all posts daily here for over four years now. Searched everything on incubation temps, diapause, nest temps etc etc. I have spent literally hundreds of hours search scientific papers and reading anything on nest temperatures. Would love any info you could lead me to.
 

Tom

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The number of times I have brought these topics up, written out experimental protocol here on TFO, and found sci.lit on the topic makes me think you don't read posts so well guys.

Even Berekely (if I got that right) who ground hatches Manouria been doing tis for a a few years now. Your Edison to my Tesla Tom.
I spend a lot of time on this forum, but I can't catch them all. I'd love a link or some help finding whatever "Berekely" has posted on manouria ground temps. I don't usually read those threads since I don't have that species, and it only frustrates me to read how great they are.
 

wellington

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The number of times I have brought these topics up, written out experimental protocol here on TFO, and found sci.lit on the topic makes me think you don't read posts so well guys.

Even Berekely (if I got that right) who ground hatches Manouria been doing tis for a a few years now. Your Edison to my Tesla Tom.
I say this in the nicest way and highest respect. You are hard to understand and to follow along sometimes. You can get very scientific (not sure that's the word I want) where the average person can not understand or follow along, so I believe interest is lost.
 

Sterant

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This is a temperature graph of a wild homopus nest in South Africa sampled by Victor Loehr. I was interested in it because this particular site falls within the natural range of Chersina angulata. It is this chart which drove me to experiment with incubation night drops of 18 degrees F.
Homopus Nest Temperatures.jpg
245929-87972cdb029294828e88c22b74611458.jpg
 

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mark1

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I've seen this for box turtles , blanding's turtles , softshell turtles and mud turtles , the graphs all look the same with very similar temps and temp swings , along with cooler temps in the beginning , warmer middle and end ….…. I do remember a study about constant temps versus temp variation out there also …another on temp sexed determination showed the difference in the temps between the eggs on the top of the nest versus the bottom of the nest …. i've used two aquarium heaters in those diy incubators , one on a timer set hotter to get higher temps in the day …….
 

Tom

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This is a temperature graph of a wild homopus nest in South Africa sampled by Victor Loehr. I was interested in it because this particular site falls within the natural range of Chersina angulata. It is this chart which drove me to experiment with incubation night drops of 18 degrees F.
View attachment 259662
245929-87972cdb029294828e88c22b74611458.jpg
This is cool, but why so few data points, I wonder. Looks like 23-24 data points in each 2 week period. Did they compile the data and list a daily or weekly high and low, and an average daily high and low?
 

Tom

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I've seen this for box turtles , blanding's turtles , softshell turtles and mud turtles , the graphs all look the same with very similar temps and temp swings , along with cooler temps in the beginning , warmer middle and end ….…. I do remember a study about constant temps versus temp variation out there also …another on temp sexed determination showed the difference in the temps between the eggs on the top of the nest versus the bottom of the nest …. i've used two aquarium heaters in those diy incubators , one on a timer set hotter to get higher temps in the day …….
If you can find those numbers for these temperate species, it would be a great addition to this thread. Looking at our own ground temps in a variety of US habitats will be a good comparison for whatever numbers we get.
 

Markw84

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Please post any data you can add to this! I have never seen anything close to the data sets I am looking for particularly for a diapause tortoise species.

From what I've seen in reading every paper I can find on nest temperatures, they do not "look the same" at all to me. Not for the questions I'm interested in answering. latitude. Sunny or shaded. Type of soil. Depth of nest. Avg temp swing during different phases of incubation. Degree hours under 70° during diapause phase for a successful nest. Degree hours over 85° for females. etc, etc. Manouria build above ground nests in piles they scrape together - so does decomposition add to temps? = different set of questions. The species we are looking at here are all diapause species. Other sets of questions.

Here's one of the best data sets I can find closest to this. It is for sea turtle nests over a season at a particular beach last years laying season. However, it does not include ambient temperatures and type of nest site chosen by female. You can see daily temp swings of only 2.5°F for most nests. Yet variation between a few of the nests like the one laid on July 30 - which I image would be a shallower nest. All of these are far different than @Sterant 's great added post about homopus. But those would be much shallower nests so interesting to see the tremendous temp swings vs. the sea turtles! You can also clearly see the effect of a few rain events on nest temps - June 9, June 21, July 18, July 30, Aug 10. ( I could not show the entire graph of the full season as I needed to spread it out enough to see daily swings)

Sea Turtle nest data 2017.jpg

More of what I want to see with this experiment is a data set similar to a very brief experiment I did this fall for a few days looking at what temps and humidity does in a location my platynota have chosen as a favorite hide in their outdoor enclosure. We have often talked about how different the micro climate is where tortoises actually live vs. meteorological data. But what is that difference really?? I wanted to see this graphically, so I placed a data logger in their favorite hiding location - with full sun exposure, but under a rather dense tuft of carex sedge that stands about 16" high. This is not in a burrow, or even dug a few inches into a pallet. This is simply pushed into the overhanging grass clump. I had already taken the platynota indoors for the year as temps were getting lower, but still good temp swings daily and fairly "dry" weather. This is for a 3 day period. Humidity stayed at 100% even though Daily "meteorological" humidity went from 30% daytime to 85% overnight - and the last day went from 24% to a high of only 50% humidity. Temps went from a daily high of about 84° to a low of 50° yet the "hide" only went from a high of 69° to a low of 58°.

Hide temp vs air temp and humidity.jpg

From this experiment, just a few of the things we will be able to see = how much nest temperatures, at depths these particular species have their nest, really do vary as compared to ambient temps at the same time. Knowing the temperature profile of a day and week and month and how nests temperatures compare and then vary, we can extrapolate to what nests in other areas are likely doing by comparing similar daily/weekly temperature profiles. We will see how many degree hours under various levels actually produces successful hatches of pardalis with their needed diapause. We won't know the limits yet, but we will have a baseline of something that works.
 

Sterant

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This is cool, but why so few data points, I wonder. Looks like 23-24 data points in each 2 week period. Did they compile the data and list a daily or weekly high and low, and an average daily high and low?
I will reach out to the authors and try to find out the specifics
 

Tom

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Please post any data you can add to this! I have never seen anything close to the data sets I am looking for particularly for a diapause tortoise species.

From what I've seen in reading every paper I can find on nest temperatures, they do not "look the same" at all to me. Not for the questions I'm interested in answering. latitude. Sunny or shaded. Type of soil. Depth of nest. Avg temp swing during different phases of incubation. Degree hours under 70° during diapause phase for a successful nest. Degree hours over 85° for females. etc, etc. Manouria build above ground nests in piles they scrape together - so does decomposition add to temps? = different set of questions. The species we are looking at here are all diapause species. Other sets of questions.

Here's one of the best data sets I can find closest to this. It is for sea turtle nests over a season at a particular beach last years laying season. However, it does not include ambient temperatures and type of nest site chosen by female. You can see daily temp swings of only 2.5°F for most nests. Yet variation between a few of the nests like the one laid on July 30 - which I image would be a shallower nest. All of these are far different than @Sterant 's great added post about homopus. But those would be much shallower nests so interesting to see the tremendous temp swings vs. the sea turtles! You can also clearly see the effect of a few rain events on nest temps - June 9, June 21, July 18, July 30, Aug 10. ( I could not show the entire graph of the full season as I needed to spread it out enough to see daily swings)

View attachment 259707

More of what I want to see with this experiment is a data set similar to a very brief experiment I did this fall for a few days looking at what temps and humidity does in a location my platynota have chosen as a favorite hide in their outdoor enclosure. We have often talked about how different the micro climate is where tortoises actually live vs. meteorological data. But what is that difference really?? I wanted to see this graphically, so I placed a data logger in their favorite hiding location - with full sun exposure, but under a rather dense tuft of carex sedge that stands about 16" high. This is not in a burrow, or even dug a few inches into a pallet. This is simply pushed into the overhanging grass clump. I had already taken the platynota indoors for the year as temps were getting lower, but still good temp swings daily and fairly "dry" weather. This is for a 3 day period. Humidity stayed at 100% even though Daily "meteorological" humidity went from 30% daytime to 85% overnight - and the last day went from 24% to a high of only 50% humidity. Temps went from a daily high of about 84° to a low of 50° yet the "hide" only went from a high of 69° to a low of 58°.

View attachment 259708

From this experiment, just a few of the things we will be able to see = how much nest temperatures, at depths these particular species have their nest, really do vary as compared to ambient temps at the same time. Knowing the temperature profile of a day and week and month and how nests temperatures compare and then vary, we can extrapolate to what nests in other areas are likely doing by comparing similar daily/weekly temperature profiles. We will see how many degree hours under various levels actually produces successful hatches of pardalis with their needed diapause. We won't know the limits yet, but we will have a baseline of something that works.
I only hit the "Like" button in this post because we don't have a "LOVE!!!" button to click on...

That second graph really tells a story.
 

Tom

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Yes me too.
I don't know how to get them to you, but it would be AMAZING, if we could figure out a way to do this same thing in your garden. I see far more value in that for the Chersina project than doing it here in my area of Southern California. It will be great to see what happens with temperatures in the ground here, but it would be even better to see what temps do in an area that actually hatches Chersina in their native range!

@Markw84 is there a way to ship some data loggers to Carol? I'll pay for the loggers and shipping.

@CarolM would you be willing to dig some holes and bury some data loggers for a year?
 
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