The End Of Pyramiding

[Redfoot NERD]

Keep it up Tom!!! Great Q? Terry O!!!

The following may surprise - hopefully 'enlightens' - many.

It was not that long ago that I also was frustrated, confused and doubtful. I'll do my best to tell my story as complete as possible.. of course with corresponding pics - some are actually "scanned" from prints [ before digital! ]

I agree in part with what Richard stated about "over-doing" the soaks and spraying, etc. I also believe that the odds of getting 'pyramiding' from/after "over-doing" is probly 328,963,1247,047,194,495,491 to 1.

To answer Terry O's Q? -

Terry it was really like your ability to visualize anything pertaining to outdoor landscaping, enclosures, vivariums, etc.! It just comes/came naturally - maybe like that's what we do?

I simply observed the situation/facts/results present.. let them incubate for a short while and the 'conclusion' hatched!

About Redfoots and Leopards.. they don't co-habitate [ make note of DATES in lower right of some of the pics.. from the first camera that was set to embed them for this very reason apparently ]

Look who's coming to dinner! Romaine/Kale? [ it gets worse............ ]

The redfoots were '98 CH that grew up quite bumpy -

Shown above at various sizes.. they were raised-up during very warm/humid seasons together outside -

Don't tell me about how you guys have done it wrong!


The Redfoots were fed no fruit or protein.. kept dry inside on hay for the Leopards and never "misted"!

The Leopards were subjected to high humidity here in TN.

They were all very small when housed together.. 4" CH redfoots and 4" WC leopards ------- YIKES!!!!!

I saw 'bumpy' Flat-tails ( a spider ssp. ) at the ZOO -

They saw remarkable results after providing "humid-hides" for their hatchlings!

I have "Mediterranean" breeder friends face the same dilemma, etc. Same results.

And I did speak with Richard Fife on the phone.. in early '03 maybe { not sure } I think I was asking him about sexing the Leopards.. and we may or may not have discussed redfoots at that time.

No humid hide for these guys -

It only took a few months..

A few pages before my article in the Sept. '06 Reptiles magazine - Jon Coote wrote about 'pyramiding' also! He was/is with a major tortoise nutrition manufacturer.. among other things. He mentioned how it has been a "slow-to-accept" concept for him also.

But to answer your Q? Terry O - I decided when I got my very first redfoot hatchling.. in Feb. '05.. that I would simply raise them totally opposite of how I described I kept the '98 hatchlings. I began to "mist-them-til-they-drip" and haven't stopped! Luck?, Coincidence? or Fate?.. there you have it.

Are they healthier since I've 'improved' their diet or habitat? - maybe!?

Originally I kept the cypress mulch entirely too wet and that created plastron 'fungus' issues - like Tom and I discussed on the phone and he mentioned on his last post. So their substrate doesn't need to be "wet".

Bottom line - "carapace contact" - with [ substantial ] humidity.. forms/always it to grow SMOOTH! There.. I've said it.

The proof is in our on-going pics.

 

[Tom]

Tom, the tortoises look great. I don't want to knock anything you've done, but I am concerned by how much you water your tortoises.

I think I read somewhere on another thread that you soak them 3 times a day and spay them up to 10 times per day. How is that replicating natural conditions? Its so extreme, its almost impossible to justify. How will you formulate your conclusion? If I soak my sulcata 2 times a day and only spray it 5 times a day, and it pyramids, did I not do enough? I really like where this is going and I am interested in your response. What is your justification for soaking 3 times day?

Thanks!

Very good question. It is a very reasonable question given the current state of sulcata knowledge. Let me tell you how I got to this point and also where I am.

In the late 80's and early 90's I worked in pet shops down by the beach in L.A. It was pretty common for people to bring in sick CDTs that were living in their backyards. The cold, clammy, beach air would cause these guys to get URTIs. We'd ship them inland to dryer, hotter areas and they'd usually get all better. So when CB sulcatas and leopards started hitting the scene around this time, the common knowledge was that since they were from the African desert, you better keep them hot and dry or they would get a URTI, just like the CDTs kept near the beach. So all of my early sulcatas went into "beef jerky maker" style set-ups. Dry substrate, hot bulb AND CHE. No water bowl, to cut down on humidity. I would soak them periodically, but then dry them off with a towel before putting them back in their hot box.

This system produced copious quantities of seemingly healthy, yet pyramided tortoises. For nearly 20 years I banged my head against the wall unable to figure out why they were pyramiding, even though I was doing everything "right". Since my job takes me all over the world, I was always checking out the local tortoises. I saw leopards in South Africa in 1999 and again in 2005. I saw smooth sulcatas that seemed to be doing fine in FL and Louisiana with no sign of any URTI. Early on, I assumed they were wild caught because they were so smooth. The people didn't know anything about proper tortoise care, so I (incorrectly) assumed that their smooth tortoises were really wild caught and they just didn't know any better.

Fast forward to 2007. I get hold of a copy of "Leopard Tortoises" by Richard and Jerry Fife. I've read tons of reptile and tortoise books, but none had ever mentioned humidity for baby sulcatas and leopards before. 15 lightbulbs went off in my head. DING! Everything, all the puzzle pieces, started coming together in my head. I had seen thousands of tortoises in South Africa, but not one single baby anywhere. DING! Maybe those people in FL and Louisiana weren't as ignorant as I had ignorantly assumed. DING! The beach tortoises were sick because it was cold AND damp. DING! Babies stay hidden in humid places, like root balls and burrows. DING! Etc... MYSTERY SOLVED!!!

I was quite upset with my self for not putting it all together sooner, but nobody else had either. Even the Fife's discovered it quite by accident. If anybody knew about it before them, they weren't telling anybody and they certainly weren't publishing it in any books. Thanks, again, to the Fife's for changing the tortoise world.

So its 2007, I've just had a 20 year mystery solved for me, what do I do now? Go get a new baby and try it out, of course! Enter Daisy:

This is Daisy, the day after I got her at 3 months old. You can see that she already had significant pyramiding. I stuck her in her enclosure on sani-chips (my usual tortoise substrate at that time) and gave her a nice humid hide box with some bed-a-beast. After a few months the pyramiding showed no sign of slowing down. I was very frustrated. I started talking to people and decided that I needed to make the whole enclosure more humid. Went to Lowes and got the orchid bark mix. Still did nothing. Next I covered the top, made the substrate much more damp and humidified the room. After a year of gradually making it more and more humid and wet, I realized two things. She was not going to get a respiratory infection or shell rot AND the pyramiding wasn't stopping. This where where I realized the next piece of the puzzle. Humidity will PREVENT pyramiding in a hatchling, NOT STOP pyramiding once it starts. Daisy's new growth does seem to be coming in smoother. Over the course of 2009 I made it wetter and wetter in Daisy's enclosure just to see what, if anything it would do. It has been SWAMPY in there for a year and a half now. There has been absolutely no ill effect and the new growth does appear to be smoothing out.

So in Jan 2010, I discover TFO at the reptile show. I met Littlefoot and talked to a pretty TFO girl. Finding this forum was like breaking open the Hoover Dam for me. The information flow was suddenly gushing after 20 years of a tiny, slow trickle. I learned that the humidity thing was already circulating out in the tortoise world. I learned about Terry K. and TerryO spraying the redfoot shells and growing them as smooth as any wild caught. I learned about dehydration being a problem in babies of desert species (Thanks Danny). I immediately began hitting Daisy with the shotgun approach. All wet all the time. Soaks, sprays, humidifiers, food spraying, substrate wetting, etc... Now understand, I've been keeping sulcatas for 20 years. I got my first turtle 30 years ago. I know what to watch for as far as health problems AND what to do about it should any surface. None did. Still haven't. Not in any way. I've actually considered making Daisy's tub into an aquatic habitat with a few haul outs just to see what would happen. That's really the only way it could be any wetter.

After two years of all wet all the time, I knew that water ain't gonna hurt a sulcata. Now with my hatchlings coming, I had to make a plan. Not too long ago Danny did a post suggesting that pyramiding was due to major internal organ damage caused by chronic dehydration in hatchlings. Danny's post explained that they could dehydrate even over night in a typical dry tortoise set up. Breathing humid air helps to prevent this dehydration.

I was determined to grow these babies smooth, so if dehydration is a factor in pyramiding, it won't be for mine. I knew that lots of water won't hurt a sulcata as long as the temps are kept up in the 80's, sooooooo here we are.

I have not ever seen any evidence that too much hydration is bad for a tortoise. If they aren't getting URTIs or any kind of shell rot, what is your concern about all the water? Another thing to consider is that I live in a very hot, dry area. What works for me might be too much for someone in the San Francisco Bay area or South Florida.

If you soak twice a day and spray 5 times a day and your tortoise still pyramids, something will have to be terribly wrong. But remember: Humidity, moisture and hydration will PREVENT pyramiding. It will not necessarily STOP pyramiding that is already underway.

How is it replicating natural conditions? I don't know if it is or isn't. I honestly don't know what natural conditions for a wild sulcata hatchling are. Do you? I've never even seen one in the wild. I do know they stay underground in humid burrows. Mine come out whenever it rains and drink and soak in puddles, even at night. I don't know how wild hatchlings find enough food underground, so they must come up some of the time, some how. I can look up the weather in those areas and see the above ground temps and humidity, but I don't think that has much to do with a baby. I don't think replicating the wild is always a good thing. I think replicating whatever is best for them in captivity is best.

What is my justification for all this? Glad you asked. Here it is:

 

[spikethebest]

i love butt shots! and tiny wrinkled legs...

 

[terryo]

Keep it up Tom!!! Great Q? Terry O!!!

The following may surprise - hopefully 'enlightens' - many.

It was not that long ago that I also was frustrated, confused and doubtful. I'll do my best to tell my story as complete as possible.. of course with corresponding pics - some are actually "scanned" from prints [ before digital! ]

I agree in part with what Richard stated about "over-doing" the soaks and spraying, etc. I also believe that the odds of getting 'pyramiding' from/after "over-doing" is probly 328,963,1247,047,194,495,491 to 1.

To answer Terry O's Q? -

Terry it was really like your ability to visualize anything pertaining to outdoor landscaping, enclosures, vivariums, etc.! It just comes/came naturally - maybe like that's what we do?

I simply observed the situation/facts/results present.. let them incubate for a short while and the 'conclusion' hatched!

About Redfoots and Leopards.. they don't co-habitate [ make note of DATES in lower right of some of the pics.. from the first camera that was set to embed them for this very reason apparently ]

Look who's coming to dinner! Romaine/Kale? [ it gets worse............ ]

The redfoots were '98 CH that grew up quite bumpy -

Shown above at various sizes.. they were raised-up during very warm/humid seasons together outside -

Don't tell me about how you guys have done it wrong!


The Redfoots were fed no fruit or protein.. kept dry inside on hay for the Leopards and never "misted"!

The Leopards were subjected to high humidity here in TN.

They were all very small when housed together.. 4" CH redfoots and 4" WC leopards ------- YIKES!!!!!

I saw 'bumpy' Flat-tails ( a spider ssp. ) at the ZOO -

They saw remarkable results after providing "humid-hides" for their hatchlings!

I have "Mediterranean" breeder friends face the same dilemma, etc. Same results.

And I did speak with Richard Fife on the phone.. in early '03 maybe { not sure } I think I was asking him about sexing the Leopards.. and we may or may not have discussed redfoots at that time.

No humid hide for these guys -

It only took a few months..

A few pages before my article in the Sept. '06 Reptiles magazine - Jon Coote wrote about 'pyramiding' also! He was/is with a major tortoise nutrition manufacturer.. among other things. He mentioned how it has been a "slow-to-accept" concept for him also.

But to answer your Q? Terry O - I decided when I got my very first redfoot hatchling.. in Feb. '05.. that I would simply raise them totally opposite of how I described I kept the '98 hatchlings. I began to "mist-them-til-they-drip" and haven't stopped! Luck?, Coincidence? or Fate?.. there you have it.

Are they healthier since I've 'improved' their diet or habitat? - maybe!?

Originally I kept the cypress mulch entirely too wet and that created plastron 'fungus' issues - like Tom and I discussed on the phone and he mentioned on his last post. So their substrate doesn't need to be "wet".

Bottom line - "carapace contact" - with [ substantial ] humidity.. forms/always it to grow SMOOTH! There.. I've said it.

The proof is in our on-going pics.

Wait a minute Nerd....didn't you tell me that Carl (cdmay) was your mentor and taught you most of everything you know about humidity for your Red's? I remember you told me that you and he e-mailed and phoned back and forth (you even told me you saved all his e-mails). In fact I remembered this post you made.
Redfoot NERD
Posting Freak

Posts: 1,766
Joined: Dec 2007
Reputation: 8

DWARF "Cherryhead" vs "Regular" redfoot
This one hopefully will answer a lot of Q?'s!!!

Everyone has a Guru / Mentor - Carl was mine. He is in FL.. and shared a couple of his '05 Brazilian's with me.

 

[RichardS]

I have not ever seen any evidence that too much hydration is bad for a tortoise. If they aren't getting URTIs or any kind of shell rot, what is your concern about all the water?

You've missed the point of my questions. How did you justify spraying 10 times per day, vs. 5 times, vs. 2 times, etc? Why not spray them 50 times per day or 100 times? If a little is good, more is better, right?

Are you familiar with the concept of diminishing marginal returns? By going so far past what most of us (with jobs) would consider feasible, you have alienated yourself and your results.

Let me break it down again. If I don't spray my tortoise it will pyramid. Gotcha. If I spray it 10 times per day, it won't pyramid. Gotcha. What if I spray it twice a day? What if I spray in 5 times per day? How do we know what will happen?

Wouldn't you have had better results if you could have told us, I only spray twice a day? Where is the fine line (or balance)? It would have helped your conclusion.

If you soak twice a day and spray 5 times a day and your tortoise still pyramids, something will have to be terribly wrong. But remember: Humidity, moisture and hydration will PREVENT pyramiding.

But that isn't what you are doing. You are soaking 3 times per day and spraying 10 times per day.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Keep it up Tom!!! Great Q? Terry O!!!

The following may surprise - hopefully 'enlightens' - many.

It was not that long ago that I also was frustrated, confused and doubtful. I'll do my best to tell my story as complete as possible.. of course with corresponding pics - some are actually "scanned" from prints [ before digital! ]

I agree in part with what Richard stated about "over-doing" the soaks and spraying, etc. I also believe that the odds of getting 'pyramiding' from/after "over-doing" is probly 328,963,1247,047,194,495,491 to 1.

To answer Terry O's Q? -

Terry it was really like your ability to visualize anything pertaining to outdoor landscaping, enclosures, vivariums, etc.! It just comes/came naturally - maybe like that's what we do?

I simply observed the situation/facts/results present.. let them incubate for a short while and the 'conclusion' hatched!

About Redfoots and Leopards.. they don't co-habitate [ make note of DATES in lower right of some of the pics.. from the first camera that was set to embed them for this very reason apparently ]

Look who's coming to dinner! Romaine/Kale? [ it gets worse............ ]

The redfoots were '98 CH that grew up quite bumpy -

Shown above at various sizes.. they were raised-up during very warm/humid seasons together outside -

Don't tell me about how you guys have done it wrong!


The Redfoots were fed no fruit or protein.. kept dry inside on hay for the Leopards and never "misted"!

The Leopards were subjected to high humidity here in TN.

They were all very small when housed together.. 4" CH redfoots and 4" WC leopards ------- YIKES!!!!!

I saw 'bumpy' Flat-tails ( a spider ssp. ) at the ZOO -

They saw remarkable results after providing "humid-hides" for their hatchlings!

I have "Mediterranean" breeder friends face the same dilemma, etc. Same results.

And I did speak with Richard Fife on the phone.. in early '03 maybe { not sure } I think I was asking him about sexing the Leopards.. and we may or may not have discussed redfoots at that time.

No humid hide for these guys -

It only took a few months..

A few pages before my article in the Sept. '06 Reptiles magazine - Jon Coote wrote about 'pyramiding' also! He was/is with a major tortoise nutrition manufacturer.. among other things. He mentioned how it has been a "slow-to-accept" concept for him also.

But to answer your Q? Terry O - I decided when I got my very first redfoot hatchling.. in Feb. '05.. that I would simply raise them totally opposite of how I described I kept the '98 hatchlings. I began to "mist-them-til-they-drip" and haven't stopped! Luck?, Coincidence? or Fate?.. there you have it.

Are they healthier since I've 'improved' their diet or habitat? - maybe!?

Originally I kept the cypress mulch entirely too wet and that created plastron 'fungus' issues - like Tom and I discussed on the phone and he mentioned on his last post. So their substrate doesn't need to be "wet".

Bottom line - "carapace contact" - with [ substantial ] humidity.. forms/always it to grow SMOOTH! There.. I've said it.

The proof is in our on-going pics.

Wait a minute Nerd....didn't you tell me that Carl (cdmay) was your mentor and taught you most of everything you know about humidity for your Red's? I remember you told me that you and he e-mailed and phoned back and forth (you even told me you saved all his e-mails). In fact I remembered this post you made.
Redfoot NERD
Posting Freak

Posts: 1,766
Joined: Dec 2007
Reputation: 8

DWARF "Cherryhead" vs "Regular" redfoot
This one hopefully will answer a lot of Q?'s!!!

Everyone has a Guru / Mentor - Carl was mine. He is in FL.. and shared a couple of his '05 Brazilian's with me.

Not that I remember TerryO! Most everything that Carl shared with me was about incubating eggs.. not humidity. In fact I'll look and see what we talked about [ emails only ] early on.

NERD

 

[Tom]

I have not ever seen any evidence that too much hydration is bad for a tortoise. If they aren't getting URTIs or any kind of shell rot, what is your concern about all the water?

You've missed the point of my questions. How did you justify spraying 10 times per day, vs. 5 times, vs. 2 times, etc? Why not spray them 50 times per day or 100 times? If a little is good, more is better, right?

Are you familiar with the concept of diminishing marginal returns? By going so far past what most of us (with jobs) would consider feasible, you have alienated yourself and your results.

Let me break it down again. If I don't spray my tortoise it will pyramid. Gotcha. If I spray it 10 times per day, it won't pyramid. Gotcha. What if I spray it twice a day? What if I spray in 5 times per day? How do we know what will happen?

Wouldn't you have had better results if you could have told us, I only spray twice a day? Where is the fine line (or balance)? It would have helped your conclusion.

If you soak twice a day and spray 5 times a day and your tortoise still pyramids, something will have to be terribly wrong. But remember: Humidity, moisture and hydration will PREVENT pyramiding.

But that isn't what you are doing. You are soaking 3 times per day and spraying 10 times per day.

Richard, I'm not sure where you are coming from here and I don't think you understand where I'm coming from either. My goal here was to raise some smooth tortoises and demonstrate through pics and text how I did it. That's really all. I don't expect to come out of this with a universal exact formula that everyone, everywhere can follow and get the exact same results. I think that what I, and several others have demonstrated here is that increased levels of hydration, moisture and humidity will grow a smooth tortoise. How much moisture and humidity will YOU need in your situation? I don't know. If your last hatchling grew lumpy, then you needed more. I think I've also shown that an extreme amount of wetness will not harm them in any way. So if someone else decides to use less than my extreme amount, they can feel a little safer about it knowing that if they went way overboard, it would still be okay.

I feel compelled to explain my methods further. I soak so many times because of my routine. First thing in the morn because Danny's post indicated that they can dehydrate over the long night. Then I soak again before I put them out in the hot dry sun. Then after an hour or two out in the hot dry air, I soak them again to rehydrate them. Finally, I soak them in the late evening, before they retire to again rehydrate them before the long night. The shell spraying is just done every time I walk by their enclosure and think about it. Others have demonstrated that it doesn't have to be done quite this much to grow a smooth one, but since it doesn't hurt, I want to go overboard with it.

I've already stated that I will try to suss out exactly what is doing the trick on future hatchlings and come up with a more reasonable approach that most people can follow, but I had to get this first one under my belt. Remember these are the first smooth hatchlings I have ever raised!

If you want to know what would happen in your enclosure, in your house, if you only spray twice a day, there is only one way to find out.

Let us all know how it goes, please.

 

[Meg90]

Can I add to this? I thought this thread was for sullys only but now I'm seeing Red foots and Leos, so Imma ad my two cents.

Novalee is a Golden Greek x Antakyan Greek cross I got her at 5 weeks old
This is her day one:

And this is her now at a year old, 4.5" and 317g

As you can see, she's smooth as butter. Not a bump or ridge in sight. And I will tell you right now, I did not soak her, spray her shell or anything. She has been soaked maybe three times in her entire life. She uses her water dish and thats it. Its big enough for her to get into, and I witnessed her using it and so I didn't feel the need to force soak her and up her stress level. My older girl hated to be soaked, and the couple times Novalee was, she hated it as well.

This is how I kept her: 3/4 aspen, and 1/4 moist eco earth with that section of the tank covered in plexi to help retain more humidity. I wet the eco earth when I noticed the top centimeter or so was dry, about once ever 4-6 days or so. She had gone through three different bins in the year that I've had her, as she grew out of them, and I set them all up just the same as her baby bin in the picture

Dusted spring mix was my staple, with dusted romaine and very rarely a veggie like squash thrown in.

I know she's not a sulcata, but the Mediterranean torts have a closer climate to sullys than red foots. I don't know if soakings are really the key to smooth growth, nor do I know if actually spraying the shell is. I did neither of those things with Novalee, and I didn't raise her on all moist bedding either, and yet, she's smooth as a stone and not pyramided at all.

 

[NealH]

Does anyone have any pics of a 9 week old sulcata with significant pyramiding? Just wondering as a comparison. Just seems a little early for all the back slapping that seems to be going on. I'm just sayin'.

Neal

 

[shmily1605]

Sorry I know I dont know much right now but here is a pic of a boy that I am about to adopt. From what I know he was not properly taking care of. But I live in MS where it is really humid and that is where he is from. He is pretty smooth so that to me is good proof that they do need humidty.

 

[dolfanjack]

Sorry I know I dont know much right now but here is a pic of a boy that I am about to adopt. From what I know he was not properly taking care of. But I live in MS where it is really humid and that is where he is from. He is pretty smooth so that to me is good proof that they do need humidty.

Nice looking tortoise congradulations.

 

[RichardS]

My goal here was to raise some smooth tortoises and demonstrate through pics and text how I did it. That's really all. I don't expect to come out of this with a universal exact formula that everyone, everywhere can follow and get the exact same results.

But over and over again you have claimed to have ended pyramiding. I think there are about 50+ threads that you make some reference to ending pyramiding.

I think that what I, and several others have demonstrated here is that increased levels of hydration, moisture and humidity will grow a smooth tortoise. How much moisture and humidity will YOU need in your situation? I don't know.

What which is it, hydration, moisture (on the shell) or humidity? Now I am confused.

I think I've also shown that an extreme amount of wetness will not harm them in any way. So if someone else decides to use less than my extreme amount, they can feel a little safer about it knowing that if they went way overboard, it would still be okay.

The shell spraying is just done every time I walk by their enclosure and think about it. Others have demonstrated that it doesn't have to be done quite this much to grow a smooth one, but since it doesn't hurt, I want to go overboard with it.

If 2 sprays a day stopped pyramiding, why do 10?
What's going to happen when a member who doesn't live in the desert reads this and sprays their tortoise 50 times a day (more is better, right?) and it develops shell rot. Will you feel any personal responsibility?

If you want to know what would happen in your enclosure, in your house, if you only spray twice a day, there is only one way to find out.

And while this last statement is undoubtedly accurate, its hard to be satisfied with after all the claims we've all heard about the end of pyramiding.

I don't think we're all looking for a bullet proof formula, however, it would have been nice if you had not have gone so far overboard.

Again, I think the tortoises look great and you are obviously doing a lot of things correctly. Diet, sunlight, D3 synthesis, hydration, etc. Your answer lies with some combination of variable.

 

[Tom]

Does anyone have any pics of a 9 week old sulcata with significant pyramiding? Just wondering as a comparison. Just seems a little early for all the back slapping that seems to be going on. I'm just sayin'.

Neal

The pic of Daisy that I posted in post #158 on page 11 is from when she was 12 weeks old. So its only three weeks away. I seriously doubt that my hatchlings are going to be perfectly smooth for 9 weeks and then suddenly sprout that kind of pyramiding. Also, I've raised lot of sulcatas from hatchlings and ALL of them started to pyramid within the first couple of weeks in my old dry set-ups.

---

Sorry I know I dont know much right now but here is a pic of a boy that I am about to adopt. From what I know he was not properly taking care of. But I live in MS where it is really humid and that is where he is from. He is pretty smooth so that to me is good proof that they do need humidty.

He does look pretty good. This is basically the same thing that I have observed all over the country. If they grow up outdoors in a humid area, they tend to be smooth regardless of the care they have or have not received.

 

[NealH]

My concern with this "study" is the lack of any sort of comparison or "control." I think it would be important to have another hatchling from the same clutch raised under the exact same conditions with the only difference being the level of humidity. Then if one showed significant pyramiding in comparison to the other, some preliminary, anecdotal conclusions might be able to be drawn. As of right now, the only conclusions are that can be drawn is that you've raised two hatchlings to nine weeks without significant pyramiding. You have to be able to be able to isolate the variable (as much as possible) and have a comparison to draw conclusions. It's not enough to just say that all of the tortoises you've raised over the past 20 years have had pyramiding and these don't. That's not an adequate comparison. I applaud you for what you're doing--I think it's great and I hope this is the answer. I just wanted to give my suggestion on how to lend a bit of credence to your argument.

Neal

 

[Tom]

My goal here was to raise some smooth tortoises and demonstrate through pics and text how I did it. That's really all. I don't expect to come out of this with a universal exact formula that everyone, everywhere can follow and get the exact same results.

But over and over again you have claimed to have ended pyramiding. I think there are about 50+ threads that you make some reference to ending pyramiding.

I think that what I, and several others have demonstrated here is that increased levels of hydration, moisture and humidity will grow a smooth tortoise. How much moisture and humidity will YOU need in your situation? I don't know.

What which is it, hydration, moisture (on the shell) or humidity? Now I am confused.

I think I've also shown that an extreme amount of wetness will not harm them in any way. So if someone else decides to use less than my extreme amount, they can feel a little safer about it knowing that if they went way overboard, it would still be okay.

The shell spraying is just done every time I walk by their enclosure and think about it. Others have demonstrated that it doesn't have to be done quite this much to grow a smooth one, but since it doesn't hurt, I want to go overboard with it.

If 2 sprays a day stopped pyramiding, why do 10?
What's going to happen when a member who doesn't live in the desert reads this and sprays their tortoise 50 times a day (more is better, right?) and it develops shell rot. Will you feel any personal responsibility?

If you want to know what would happen in your enclosure, in your house, if you only spray twice a day, there is only one way to find out.

And while this last statement is undoubtedly accurate, its hard to be satisfied with after all the claims we've all heard about the end of pyramiding.

I don't think we're all looking for a bullet proof formula, however, it would have been nice if you had not have gone so far overboard.

Again, I think the tortoises look great and you are obviously doing a lot of things correctly. Diet, sunlight, D3 synthesis, hydration, etc. Your answer lies with some combination of variable.

Well okay Mr. Critical Pants. I'll dance.

First of all I have NEVER claimed to have ended pyramiding. I HAVE repeatedly claimed that my GOAL is to end pyramiding. It was. It still is. It will always be. Will I ever achieve my goal? That would be near impossible. I just want to do as much to end it as I possibly can, for as many people and their tortoises as I can. I have certainly ended it for my self and several forum members have thanked me for helping give them the info for keeping theirs smooth.

Second, I have repeatedly stated that I don't know which single element or combination of elements is doing it yet. I only know that all of these elements together, in my environment, DOES prevent pyramiding. You seem to be upset that I don't want to jump to wild, premature conclusions. In time and after half a dozen or so more attempts at various techniques, I'll have your answer about exactly how much of what part is working the magic. I can't help it if you are confused. I've spent hours of my time typing it out in plain english and answering numerous questions about it.

Third point. I don't know if two times a day is enough. I don't know if 50 times a day is too much. Neither do you. I have clearly stated that sulcatas have a much greater resistance to shell rot than some of the other species and that after two years of keeping mine swampy, I have had no ill effect. Others have related similar experiences. (Thanks Dean) All I am doing is reporting what I have done and what I am doing so that others who are interested can learn from my experiences and draw their own conclusions as I have. Terry K did not tell me that I MUST spray them 10 times a day. In fact he cautioned against shell rot in the redfoots. He told me what he does. I assimilated that with what I know and have observed about MY situation and chose to spray the heck out of mine. Its working, and its not hurting them in the least. Everyone else will have to exercise their own judgement about how much is enough or too much. I have demonstrated the result of keeping them too dry with Daisy and my adults. Now I am demonstrating the results of keeping them super sloppy wet. I will demonstrate something in between these too extremes with future hatchlings.

Finally, you are the second person to come after me like this. I don't understand what you are upset about any more than the first person who did it. I do appreciate it, however. It helps me to explain things more thoroughly. It helps me to examine exactly what I have done, what I am doing and what I will do. Your critical thinking and questions cause me to think more critically and look for faults or possible problems in this whole equation. For that, I thank you.

But I still can't understand why anybody would be upset at a guy who is demonstrating how he is growing some smooth tortoises, in a species that rarely grows smooth in captivity. It seems as though you are upset because my goals are too lofty. They might be, but I'm not lowering them for you or anyone else. IF I could end pyramiding for everyone, everywhere, for ever, I would. Of course I can't, but I will strive to do as much as I humanly can in that direction. The last naysayer accused me of being "so full of myself". That may be true, but isn't it still a good thing to try to improve the lives of our tortoises? That's all I am doing here. I don't even take the credit for what I'm doing here. I've mentioned the names of the people who discovered these things and who I learned them from so many times that I've been teased about it.

---

Can I add to this? I thought this thread was for sullys only but now I'm seeing Red foots and Leos, so Imma ad my two cents.

Novalee is a Golden Greek x Antakyan Greek cross I got her at 5 weeks old
This is her day one:

And this is her now at a year old, 4.5" and 317g

As you can see, she's smooth as butter. Not a bump or ridge in sight. And I will tell you right now, I did not soak her, spray her shell or anything. She has been soaked maybe three times in her entire life. She uses her water dish and thats it. Its big enough for her to get into, and I witnessed her using it and so I didn't feel the need to force soak her and up her stress level. My older girl hated to be soaked, and the couple times Novalee was, she hated it as well.

This is how I kept her: 3/4 aspen, and 1/4 moist eco earth with that section of the tank covered in plexi to help retain more humidity. I wet the eco earth when I noticed the top centimeter or so was dry, about once ever 4-6 days or so. She had gone through three different bins in the year that I've had her, as she grew out of them, and I set them all up just the same as her baby bin in the picture

Dusted spring mix was my staple, with dusted romaine and very rarely a veggie like squash thrown in.

I know she's not a sulcata, but the Mediterranean torts have a closer climate to sullys than red foots. I don't know if soakings are really the key to smooth growth, nor do I know if actually spraying the shell is. I did neither of those things with Novalee, and I didn't raise her on all moist bedding either, and yet, she's smooth as a stone and not pyramided at all.

Hi Meg. Thanks for including your care regime for your tort. Novalee has an extremely beautiful shell and you have done a fine job with her. Yours is a great example of how to raise a smooth Med. tort.

 

[RichardS]

I have repeatedly stated that I don't know which single element or combination of elements is doing it yet. I only know that all of these elements together, in my environment, DOES prevent pyramiding. You seem to be upset that I don't want to jump to wild, premature conclusions.

I am concerned that you have already formulated a premature conclusion.

I have clearly stated that sulcatas have a much greater resistance to shell rot than some of the other species and that after two years of keeping mine swampy, I have had no ill effect.

Do you not see the difference in your statements? On one hand you say you have solved pyramiding (but only in your exact specific situation), which may or may not work for anyone else.

On the other hand, you have concluded that keeping sulcatas swampy has no ill effect, across the board. How can you be so confident about one statement/conclusion, but not the other?

I have demonstrated the result of keeping them too dry with Daisy and my adults. Now I am demonstrating the results of keeping them super sloppy wet. I will demonstrate something in between these too extremes with future hatchlings.

Are you going on the record with a third batch? When are you finishing the current experiment? how much longer are you planning to keep them on their same diet?

But I still can't understand why anybody would be upset at a guy who is demonstrating how he is growing some smooth tortoises, in a species that rarely grows smooth in captivity. It seems as though you are upset because my goals are too lofty. They might be, but I'm not lowering them for you or anyone else.

IF I could end pyramiding for everyone, everywhere, for ever, I would. Of course I can't, but I will strive to do as much as I humanly can in that direction. The last naysayer accused me of being "so full of myself". That may be true, but isn't it still a good thing to try to improve the lives of our tortoises? That's all I am doing here. I don't even take the credit for what I'm doing here.

I am not upset. More power to you.

On your third trial, can you eliminate all sunshine and UVB of any kind, so we can conclude that has no effect on the tortoises shells.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Instead of "replying" with the entire page I'll just 'reply' to this post Terry O made -

Terry K......Where would you attribute learning that humidity played such an important part in pyramiding?

I replied and didn't include Carl ( cdmay ) as being an influence in any way.. to which she 'questioned'?

Wait a minute Nerd....didn't you tell me that Carl (cdmay) was your mentor and taught you most of everything you know about humidity for your Red's? I remember you told me that you and he e-mailed and phoned back and forth (you even told me you saved all his e-mails). In fact I remembered this post you made.

Redfoot NERD
Posting Freak

Posts: 1,766
Joined: Dec 2007
Reputation: 8

DWARF "Cherryhead" vs "Regular" redfoot
This one hopefully will answer a lot of Q?'s!!!

Everyone has a Guru / Mentor - Carl was mine. He is in FL.. and shared a couple of his '05 Brazilian's with me.

I replied.. Not that I remember TerryO! Most everything that Carl shared with me was about incubating eggs.. not humidity. In fact I'll look and see what we talked about [ emails only ] early on.

NERD

I looked back thru and found this.. the first mention of 'pyramiding' thru-out our emails -- NOTE DATES --

[ unrelated dialogue about incubation advice results with pics deleted and then ]...



Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: You believe THIS?
From: Terry E. Kilgore
To: Cdm [ address hidden ]

Showing "growth" with no pyramiding. I 'mist' them til they drip 3 or so times a day.. I believe that is making a difference. They sure like endive as a staple and pineapple as a treat!

We then shared pics of hatchlings back and forth and Carl talked about a 4" he had raised up and mentioned about pyramiding the first [ and last ] time..

From: Cdm
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: This is my opinion.......


Terry,
Oh, now I understand.

Regarding that cherryhead, I have raised her for nearly 10 years from a 4 inch import. She did lay a few days after that one photo was taken (her first clutch) and then she laid the 9 eggs a few weeks back. I don't get pyramiding in my animals when they are outside.
Carl

I did attempt to speak with Carl on the phone a few times but we never have.

Carl does no doubt provide the 'ideal' outdoor enclosure I'm sure - knowing that he does work in landscaping!

Just wanted to make sure it was not misunderstood. Carl has been a substantial help and has greatly influenced the little success I've had at breeding redfoot tortoises. He and a few others that frequent this forum have years of actual 'hands-on' experience HERE in the US where most of us live.. which has mainly been my source of research.

And as Carl has told me in past.. "We all have much to learn"...

NERD

BTW ---- Tom with your 'contacts' in the "entertainment industry" you should have then consider this thread as some kind of "SOAP"........... it would sell zillions.......... hahahahahahaha

 

[Madkins007]

In another thread, I believe you gave at least some of the credit for misting to an article by Fife in Reptiles magazine, as well.

 

[Tom]

Hi Richard. I'll hit your points and questions one at a time. BTW, I want to reiterate that your input is appreciated and welcomed.

#1. The only conclusion that I have reached, is that what I am doing is working so far. NOTHING has ever worked in the past, so this is monumental to me.

#2. Yes I do see the difference and you are right. I am, however, stating my opinions based on what is happening at my house AND what I have observed all over the globe in the last 20 years AND what others have observed and experienced with their torts. I know lots of people with tortoises, so this is a considerable pool of knowledge and experience to draw from.

#3a. Yes, I will be messin' with a third batch and a fourth and a fifth, etc... I cannot foresee any point in the future where I will not want to share what I learn with other tortoise keepers, so yes it will be "on record".

#3b. I don't know that the current "experiment" will ever end. I dream about what these three hatchlings will look like in 10 or 20 years. I can't even begin to imagine what I will have learned by then. I look forward to the offspring of these offspring.

#3c. I haven't decided about the diet yet. They are eating the same stuff that my current adults were eating when they were hatchlings. The only thing I really want to do different is add more grass earlier than I did for my other ones and add Mazuri, as I believe it to be beneficial in many ways. For now the diet will continue to closely mimic the diet that my adults were raised on. When it changes, I will let everyone know as that will clearly "corrupt" my little informal experiement here.

#4. Glad you are not upset. Thanks for the power sent my way, and no I will not eliminate UV as an experiment. I believe all tortoises (even the forest torts, to a lesser degree) need to be outside with some access to sun. As Maggie has stated many times you need 4 things for a healthy tort. Sun (UV), exercise, good diet and humidity. I'm not so much of a mad scientist that I would do anything that would risk the health and well being of a tortoise. I don't mind messing with some of the moisture, humidity or hydration factors a bit, but I won't knowingly risk their well being. I think removing them from any UV would be a risk to their health eventually.

Richard, you are obviously a reasonable and intelligent person. Please keep up your questions. They remind me of things I have forgotten and stimulate me to think more about things I have yet to learn.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

In another thread, I believe you gave at least some of the credit for misting to an article by Fife in Reptiles magazine, as well.

Exactly Mark.. May '05 publication.. over 5 years ago is hard to recall all events. I may have emailed or spoken with Richard about his findings of the importance of humidity for hatchlings!

NERD