when will my tortoise lay eggs?

[Floof]

my mom will think that i got out of my mind if i offered all of that care to my tortoise , as i said before tortoises are not so important creatures here unfortunately and we don't even have shops which sell the tortoises supplies , the only kind of tortoises which get some care here is the Egyptian tortoises because they are about to extinct , and we don't even rise it at homes because it is illegal "in fact some don't care about laws and do raise it at their homes" . i will do my best to offer a suitable life for my tortoises but i'm sure that non of my family will let me get them the Enclosures and the incubators .

Unfortunately a large enough enclosure and things like that are vital for tortoises, especially if you want them to breed. Can you sit down with your mom and try to explain to her why they're important to you, and try to get her to see from your perspective why these things are needed?

Especially UVB lighting, that is absolutely vital to keeping tortoises healthy. Without UVB (or lots of time in natural sunlight), they cannot process calcium. If they cannot process calcium, they become extremely calcium deficient, which can be deadly. Calcium is necessary for the body to function, and not just for bone health. Without proper calcium, a breeding female can't form proper eggs. There is a disease called Metabolic Bone disease, or MBD, where the body steals calcium from the bones. It is fatal if not caught and treated in time, and, as far as I know, cannot be reversed. A couple signs of extremely severe MBD are for your tortoises to develop a soft shell and start having seizures. At that point, without the intervention of an experienced vet or reptile rehabilitator, it is generally too late.

If you show us your enclosure and help us understand the situation a bit better (in a new thread), then we should be able to help you come up with solutions that, hopefully, are more agreeable to your parents and good for your tortoises.

For example, you can build your own enclosure for the tortoises at home, instead of spending a lot of money on a large pre-made one. It's not very hard to do. Basically, you're making a very large plywood box and making it water proof (which can be as easy as lining it with a tarp). You can even convert a large bookcase to be a tortoise enclosure, though you would need to modify it to be deep enough for the female's egg laying areas. You can find great ideas on how to build your own tortoise enclosure from scratch or by converting something else down in the Enclosures forum.

Until you can get a proper UVB bulb, you can take them outside and let them bask in direct sunlight a few hours a day. They don't necessarily have to be running around on grass, as long as you have a cool, shady spot for them to hide and can keep a close eye on them, even your front porch would work. A local park would work, if you can make sure the city doesn't treat the park with pesticides and other chemicals.

You said your family has a villa with a yard? Can you build an outdoor enclosure there for the tortoises for when you go there? Outdoor enclosures are easy to make. You need to make it secure, so they can't dig or climb out, and so that predators can't get in. A top with chicken wire works wonderfully, it keeps predators out while still letting the sunlight through. It needs to have a water dish or two, depending on how big it is, and lots of shade, hiding places, and yummy things to eat. Basically, living plants. Things like hibiscus, collard greens, turnips, dandelions, and other edible plants and flowers are wonderful, plus the bigger ones like hibiscus shrubs provide great hiding places and shade. You can find great ideas on how to make a good outdoor enclosure in the Enclosure forum, too.

Do you have a basking bulb for them so they can get to the proper temperature? Do you have thermometers? If you don't have either of these, then you can find lamps at hardware stores (where you would buy wood, screws, etc to make your tortoise enclosure). Here in the states, they are sold as "Brooder lamps." I don't know what the name would be there, but they are used to keep baby chickens warm. They look like this: http://www.poultryhelp.com/brooders2.jpg

And you can use digital household thermometers to monitor your temperatures, the ones that sit in the house and have a sensor that sits outside to tell you what temperature it is outside? They are excellent. You can put the outdoor sensor on or next to the basking spot and the indoor unit on the cool side to watch your temperatures. They usually look something like this (thermometer with a wired probe): http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/50...door_Thermometer_digital_thermometer_room.jpg or this (thermometer with a wireless sensor): http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/partshelf/ps-00604Large.jpg If nothing else, you can order them online for not too much. Most have a switch so you can put them in Fahrenheit or Celsius, whichever you prefer.

As far as their substrate is concerned, you can try to find organic garden soil or really plain top soil, basically dirt with no chemicals in it. Make sure it doesn't have perlite (little white pieces) in it because tortoises like to eat them but they can't digest them.

The incubator, if you ever get eggs, might be a problem, but we'll worry about that when we have everything else figured out. They aren't going to breed if their care isn't right, so there shouldn't be eggs to incubate until you get everything else figured out, anyway.

 

[egyptian and proud "mayar"]

my mom will think that i got out of my mind if i offered all of that care to my tortoise , as i said before tortoises are not so important creatures here unfortunately and we don't even have shops which sell the tortoises supplies , the only kind of tortoises which get some care here is the Egyptian tortoises because they are about to extinct , and we don't even rise it at homes because it is illegal "in fact some don't care about laws and do raise it at their homes" . i will do my best to offer a suitable life for my tortoises but i'm sure that non of my family will let me get them the Enclosures and the incubators .

Unfortunately a large enough enclosure and things like that are vital for tortoises, especially if you want them to breed. Can you sit down with your mom and try to explain to her why they're important to you, and try to get her to see from your perspective why these things are needed?

Especially UVB lighting, that is absolutely vital to keeping tortoises healthy. Without UVB (or lots of time in natural sunlight), they cannot process calcium. If they cannot process calcium, they become extremely calcium deficient, which can be deadly. Calcium is necessary for the body to function, and not just for bone health. Without proper calcium, a breeding female can't form proper eggs. There is a disease called Metabolic Bone disease, or MBD, where the body steals calcium from the bones. It is fatal if not caught and treated in time, and, as far as I know, cannot be reversed. A couple signs of extremely severe MBD are for your tortoises to develop a soft shell and start having seizures. At that point, without the intervention of an experienced vet or reptile rehabilitator, it is generally too late.

If you show us your enclosure and help us understand the situation a bit better (in a new thread), then we should be able to help you come up with solutions that, hopefully, are more agreeable to your parents and good for your tortoises.

For example, you can build your own enclosure for the tortoises at home, instead of spending a lot of money on a large pre-made one. It's not very hard to do. Basically, you're making a very large plywood box and making it water proof (which can be as easy as lining it with a tarp). You can even convert a large bookcase to be a tortoise enclosure, though you would need to modify it to be deep enough for the female's egg laying areas. You can find great ideas on how to build your own tortoise enclosure from scratch or by converting something else down in the Enclosures forum.

Until you can get a proper UVB bulb, you can take them outside and let them bask in direct sunlight a few hours a day. They don't necessarily have to be running around on grass, as long as you have a cool, shady spot for them to hide and can keep a close eye on them, even your front porch would work. A local park would work, if you can make sure the city doesn't treat the park with pesticides and other chemicals.

You said your family has a villa with a yard? Can you build an outdoor enclosure there for the tortoises for when you go there? Outdoor enclosures are easy to make. You need to make it secure, so they can't dig or climb out, and so that predators can't get in. A top with chicken wire works wonderfully, it keeps predators out while still letting the sunlight through. It needs to have a water dish or two, depending on how big it is, and lots of shade, hiding places, and yummy things to eat. Basically, living plants. Things like hibiscus, collard greens, turnips, dandelions, and other edible plants and flowers are wonderful, plus the bigger ones like hibiscus shrubs provide great hiding places and shade. You can find great ideas on how to make a good outdoor enclosure in the Enclosure forum, too.

Do you have a basking bulb for them so they can get to the proper temperature? Do you have thermometers? If you don't have either of these, then you can find lamps at hardware stores (where you would buy wood, screws, etc to make your tortoise enclosure). Here in the states, they are sold as "Brooder lamps." I don't know what the name would be there, but they are used to keep baby chickens warm. They look like this: http://www.poultryhelp.com/brooders2.jpg

And you can use digital household thermometers to monitor your temperatures, the ones that sit in the house and have a sensor that sits outside to tell you what temperature it is outside? They are excellent. You can put the outdoor sensor on or next to the basking spot and the indoor unit on the cool side to watch your temperatures. They usually look something like this (thermometer with a wired probe): http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/50...door_Thermometer_digital_thermometer_room.jpg or this (thermometer with a wireless sensor): http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/partshelf/ps-00604Large.jpg If nothing else, you can order them online for not too much. Most have a switch so you can put them in Fahrenheit or Celsius, whichever you prefer.

As far as their substrate is concerned, you can try to find organic garden soil or really plain top soil, basically dirt with no chemicals in it. Make sure it doesn't have perlite (little white pieces) in it because tortoises like to eat them but they can't digest them.

The incubator, if you ever get eggs, might be a problem, but we'll worry about that when we have everything else figured out. They aren't going to breed if their care isn't right, so there shouldn't be eggs to incubate until you get everything else figured out, anyway.

i don't have an enclosure it is just a cartoon box , i change it every month or though , and about the bulb i have this one i don't know if it is suitable or what? http://www.google.com.eg/imgres?um=...&w=245&h=245&ei=1aK2T-XgIYfYsgah_9neBw&zoom=1


it is hard to get them outside as i go to the collage regularly but i can do that in summer , i'm afraid to put them in the porch since something eat my friend's tortoise "her head and legs" and i don't want that to happen to my tortoises
i know that it might be normal where you live to give tortoises this much of care , but where i live even some humans can't have the care they need , so the first thing i will hear that i'm ridiculous
my family suggested to move the tortoises to the villa but i don't live there and it is far away and i don't want to leave my tortoises
Egypt is not very cold , it is about 25 degree this days so i guess the temperature is okay for them
i intend to get them some soil and i discussed that with my family and they finally agreed "but not happy of course" .

 

[Floof]

If you can get your hands on cheap wood and screws, or even an old free bookcase, a better enclosure is very easy to make. See what you can get your hands on. An indoor tortoise enclosure can be as simple as a big wooden box with a tarp to keep the wood from rotting.

Here's how easy making an enclosure can be... Get a big free bookcase (a couple meters tall, preferably), lay it on its back, line it with some kind of cheap plastic liner (tarp, shower curtain, etc), add dirt. Very easy, and not very expensive, either.

Is that a household bulb, or was it sold as a UVB bulb? Either way, no, it isn't suitable. They do not put off heat, and the compact fluorescent (spiral-shaped) UVB bulbs can seriously damage tortoise's eyes. For heat, you can use an incandescent household lightbulb, like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...hlampe_01_KMJ.png/200px-Gluehlampe_01_KMJ.png Start with 60 or 75 watts and go from there, but you WILL need a thermometer to make sure their basking spot (right under the bulb) is the right temperature.

You want their basking spot to be around 35*C, but they also need an area that is room temperature (around 22-25*C) so they can cool off.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend's tortoise! Predators are definitely something to remember when you have your tortoises outside. If you're going to have them outside, either have them in something with a wire lid so predators (dogs and the like) can't get in, or sit outside and watch them when they're out.

Even here, a lot of people have trouble believing that tortoises need more than a tiny aquarium and some lettuce, but, you're right, people in the states are generally more used to giving their animals better care. A couple arguments to remember are that tortoises make good companions, and that they can outlive most humans! So they most certainly aren't a throw-away pet, and deserve the right care.

I agree, moving them to the villa where you can't interact and take care of them would kind of defeat the purpose of having them. But, it would be wonderful to have a nice outdoor enclosure for them there, for when you will be there.

 

[egyptian and proud "mayar"]

If you can get your hands on cheap wood and screws, or even an old free bookcase, a better enclosure is very easy to make. See what you can get your hands on. An indoor tortoise enclosure can be as simple as a big wooden box with a tarp to keep the wood from rotting.

Here's how easy making an enclosure can be... Get a big free bookcase (a couple meters tall, preferably), lay it on its back, line it with some kind of cheap plastic liner (tarp, shower curtain, etc), add dirt. Very easy, and not very expensive, either.

Is that a household bulb, or was it sold as a UVB bulb? Either way, no, it isn't suitable. They do not put off heat, and the compact fluorescent (spiral-shaped) UVB bulbs can seriously damage tortoise's eyes. For heat, you can use an incandescent household lightbulb, like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...hlampe_01_KMJ.png/200px-Gluehlampe_01_KMJ.png Start with 60 or 75 watts and go from there, but you WILL need a thermometer to make sure their basking spot (right under the bulb) is the right temperature.

You want their basking spot to be around 35*C, but they also need an area that is room temperature (around 22-25*C) so they can cool off.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend's tortoise! Predators are definitely something to remember when you have your tortoises outside. If you're going to have them outside, either have them in something with a wire lid so predators (dogs and the like) can't get in, or sit outside and watch them when they're out.

Even here, a lot of people have trouble believing that tortoises need more than a tiny aquarium and some lettuce, but, you're right, people in the states are generally more used to giving their animals better care. A couple arguments to remember are that tortoises make good companions, and that they can outlive most humans! So they most certainly aren't a throw-away pet, and deserve the right care.

I agree, moving them to the villa where you can't interact and take care of them would kind of defeat the purpose of having them. But, it would be wonderful to have a nice outdoor enclosure for them there, for when you will be there.

i asked for the uvb bulb and they said that it is the one i posted , we have some of the incandescent household lightbulb , so it wont be a problem
and is the cartoon box harmful for them?

 

[Floof]

Ok, so that is a UVB bulb? I'm sorry to say that style of UVB bulb can be quite harmful to tortoises, though. It can cause severe eye infection, among other problems. There is at least one member here who had a tortoise die because of the damage from its compact fluorescent UVB bulb. For your UVB bulb, you want one made in the style of a tube (long, straight) fluorescent, or what is called a Mercury Vapor Bulb, which looks like a big incandescent spot light. Arcadia is a brand of fluorescent UVB commonly available in the UK, that I keep hearing is a really good bulb. Here in the states, the favorite brands seem to be ReptiSun (fluorescent) and PowerSun (mercury vapor) by Zoo Med. I don't know whether any of those are available in Egypt, but it's something to look into...

Otherwise, yes, an incandescent bulb will be much more important than the uvb right now. You can make up for the UVB by taking them outside in the sun whenever you have time, but they need to have the right temperatures at all times, especially when they're inside for most of the day.

I assume a cartoon box is the same as a cardboard box? It's not necessarily harmful, it's just that I've never seen one big enough to house a tortoise (you need an enclosure that is at least 2 meters [6 feet] long to comfortably house 2 tortoises), and they're quite flimsy, especially when you start putting moist soil in it for them. If you can find one that's big enough and line it with plastic or something so the water from the soil doesn't seep through and ruin the box, then a cardboard/cartoon box can work fine. Wood boxes, if you can build one, are much sturdier and don't have to be replaced all the time, plus you can make them as big as you want.

 

[egyptian and proud "mayar"]

Ok, so that is a UVB bulb? I'm sorry to say that style of UVB bulb can be quite harmful to tortoises, though. It can cause severe eye infection, among other problems. There is at least one member here who had a tortoise die because of the damage from its compact fluorescent UVB bulb. For your UVB bulb, you want one made in the style of a tube (long, straight) fluorescent, or what is called a Mercury Vapor Bulb, which looks like a big incandescent spot light. Arcadia is a brand of fluorescent UVB commonly available in the UK, that I keep hearing is a really good bulb. Here in the states, the favorite brands seem to be ReptiSun (fluorescent) and PowerSun (mercury vapor) by Zoo Med. I don't know whether any of those are available in Egypt, but it's something to look into...

Otherwise, yes, an incandescent bulb will be much more important than the uvb right now. You can make up for the UVB by taking them outside in the sun whenever you have time, but they need to have the right temperatures at all times, especially when they're inside for most of the day.

I assume a cartoon box is the same as a cardboard box? It's not necessarily harmful, it's just that I've never seen one big enough to house a tortoise (you need an enclosure that is at least 2 meters [6 feet] long to comfortably house 2 tortoises), and they're quite flimsy, especially when you start putting moist soil in it for them. If you can find one that's big enough and line it with plastic or something so the water from the soil doesn't seep through and ruin the box, then a cardboard/cartoon box can work fine. Wood boxes, if you can build one, are much sturdier and don't have to be replaced all the time, plus you can make them as big as you want.

the box i have is not that big , we don't have empty place in our flat to put such a big box , the box i have is like 70*70 cm .
i will try to take them out for some time
but they there is something more important now which is that they are starving and they are not eating the cactus anymore , i feel like i'm torturing them they must hate me now

 

[Michael Bird]

70cm square? Wow, that's not even big enough for a single hatchling. Four of those together is about the minimum amount of space you'd need for a single greek adult, and even that is too small. You need at least ten times that much space for two adults, and they're still going to fight over territory and the male is going to harass the female all the time since there's no room for her to get away from him.

 

[Floof]

I'm thinking part of the food problem might be the temperatures... Definitely get an incandescent bulb over them to give them a basking spot. And definitely get a thermometer so you can know what the temperature is on the basking spot. 70x70 cm isn't as bad as I was imagining, at least... You should be able to put the lamp over one corner and it will leave enough room for them to cool off on the other side.

As far as finding space for something so big, take a look at the Enclosures section. There are a lot of really creative ideas there for building an enclosure to suit your tortoise and your space. You can do different things like making it shorter but wider (like, 1.2 meters by 1.2 meters instead of 2 meters by .6 meters) and even making a two-level enclosure.

Michael is right... Even the 2 meters I'm recommending is, really, too small. Normally I recommend 2 meters by .6 meters as a minimum for one adult tortoise the size of your Greeks. But it sounds like we can't live up to ideals right now. It's more important to get them in at least liveable conditions right now, even if it means skimping on space for awhile.

Try more than just cactus. Cactus isn't really an every day food, more like once or twice a week. It's very good for them, but the sugars in it can upset their stomachs a bit. Sorry, I probably should have mentioned that earlier!

Are they refusing lettuce, too, or are you just not offering it to them right now? If they're refusing the lettuce, then that's definitely bad. If it's just that you aren't offering lettuce and they don't want the cactus, then that's not much to worry about right now. Tortoises are stubborn, and they will try to hold out for the "good stuff" and ignore the stuff they aren't used to. They'll get hungry eventually and start eating, as long as you start correcting some of the problems (with the temperatures, again, being the big one!).

 

[egyptian and proud "mayar"]

70cm square? Wow, that's not even big enough for a single hatchling. Four of those together is about the minimum amount of space you'd need for a single greek adult, and even that is too small. You need at least ten times that much space for two adults, and they're still going to fight over territory and the male is going to harass the female all the time since there's no room for her to get away from him.

they really go along well with each other , no one is bothering the other .
my mom got them a bigger box it is about 100*70 cm
we don't have much room for bigger box . out flat is full of furniture .

---

I'm thinking part of the food problem might be the temperatures... Definitely get an incandescent bulb over them to give them a basking spot. And definitely get a thermometer so you can know what the temperature is on the basking spot. 70x70 cm isn't as bad as I was imagining, at least... You should be able to put the lamp over one corner and it will leave enough room for them to cool off on the other side.

As far as finding space for something so big, take a look at the Enclosures section. There are a lot of really creative ideas there for building an enclosure to suit your tortoise and your space. You can do different things like making it shorter but wider (like, 1.2 meters by 1.2 meters instead of 2 meters by .6 meters) and even making a two-level enclosure.

Michael is right... Even the 2 meters I'm recommending is, really, too small. Normally I recommend 2 meters by .6 meters as a minimum for one adult tortoise the size of your Greeks. But it sounds like we can't live up to ideals right now. It's more important to get them in at least liveable conditions right now, even if it means skimping on space for awhile.

Try more than just cactus. Cactus isn't really an every day food, more like once or twice a week. It's very good for them, but the sugars in it can upset their stomachs a bit. Sorry, I probably should have mentioned that earlier!

Are they refusing lettuce, too, or are you just not offering it to them right now? If they're refusing the lettuce, then that's definitely bad. If it's just that you aren't offering lettuce and they don't want the cactus, then that's not much to worry about right now. Tortoises are stubborn, and they will try to hold out for the "good stuff" and ignore the stuff they aren't used to. They'll get hungry eventually and start eating, as long as you start correcting some of the problems (with the temperatures, again, being the big one!).

i will try to get a lamp to day for them , but i'm not sure i'm gonna found the uvb bulb you mean
i'm not offering lettuce , and i don't have any other thing today but the cactus and lettuce and they still refuse to eat . that is their 3rd day

 

[Floof]

Don't worry about UVB right now. Just get a regular lightbulb (incandescent) over them for heat. You can take them outside in the sun for UVB. Right now you need to worry more about heat. Can you get a thermometer today, too? You still will need to know the temperature under the lamp, to make sure it's warm enough.

Like I said, I think their trouble eating might have something to do with the heat. Get a lamp over them and see if it helps. They can't digest their food properly if they aren't warm enough, which can cause big problems including making them not want to eat.

 

[egyptian and proud "mayar"]

Don't worry about UVB right now. Just get a regular lightbulb (incandescent) over them for heat. You can take them outside in the sun for UVB. Right now you need to worry more about heat. Can you get a thermometer today, too? You still will need to know the temperature under the lamp, to make sure it's warm enough.

Like I said, I think their trouble eating might have something to do with the heat. Get a lamp over them and see if it helps. They can't digest their food properly if they aren't warm enough, which can cause big problems including making them not want to eat.

i will try to get that tomorrow
there is another problem which is the female thinks that she is a monkey and she like to climb things , i was gonna have a heart stroke because of her , i found her laying on her back and not moving , i thought that she died or something , but she is alive thanks Allah , that is the fourth tme she does that in a year . and i'm not always by her to rescue her

 

[Floof]

Tortoises like to explore, a lot. The small space is probably stressing her out. The male may be stressing her out and making her want to escape more, too. Like Michael said, he's probably stressing her out... Just because they look like they're getting along when you watch them doesn't mean they are.

Anyway, usually, getting a tortoise that acts like your female in a properly sized enclosure with deep enough bedding will help a lot with getting them to stop. If you give them enough room to roam around and explore, they won't feel the need to climb the walls and try to get out.

See if you can rearrange your room and find a space. I know 2 meters or bigger is hard to find room for, but it can be done. You can do things like put the enclosure on top of another piece of furniture (like a really long dresser, or a couple dressers pushed together).

 

[Michael Bird]

If you really can't make room for a larger flat table/enclosure, you could make something similar to this really nice looking enclosure (click the tiny pictures in Chairman's post to see them full size) that gives a pretty decent amount of roaming area for the tortoises without taking up very much floor space. Or possibly something like this or this which were my own ideas for a multiple level enclosure made of wood instead of the clear plexiglass that Chairman used.

 

[MarcaineArt]

If you really can't make room for a larger flat table/enclosure, you could make something similar to this really nice looking enclosure (click the tiny pictures in Chairman's post to see them full size) that gives a pretty decent amount of roaming area for the tortoises without taking up very much floor space. Or possibly something like this or this which were my own ideas for a multiple level enclosure made of wood instead of the clear plexiglass that Chairman used.

Thats a cool idea. Most people seem to be of the opinion that really big single layer is better. I'd like to see some pictures of his torts in the enclosure to get a better idea of scale.

To Mayar. At least you are in the right place to learn how to better care for your tortoise here. I have been learning a lot on this site and I think every day is making me a better tort owner. Keep reading and do the best you can to find the suggestions people on here give. Everyone has the tortoises best interests at heart and while some people may express their opinions more aggressively just do the best you can. You sound like you really care for your pet and want to do the best you can. I don't know if you have a small balcony area with your flat but that would be a great place to grow some of this if you can:http://www.sulcatafood.com/Store.html I bought some of this and grew it on my window sill in small low bins and brought them outside. The guys i have love it and it is very easy to grow. One bag would cover a huge area so you don't need too much at a time.

May I ask how old you are?

 

[egyptian and proud "mayar"]

thanks all for replying , i've been away for a while
they are eating arugula now , i will try to do the best for them
and i'm 20 years old

 

[Michael Bird]

I completely understand space restrictions. I don't have a lot of room for my Greek tortoise either, which is why I was working on the different multiple level ideas I posted earlier. But it's good that you are getting them eating a variety of things since that will really help improve their health.

 

[CactusVinnie]

It's OK that you ask and you want to learn... it is OK even to take a few wild tortoises in your care, if you ALREADY know what they need- me too, I keep natives, but not collected by myself, since here I am able to find LOTS of ignorant people that not only collected them ILLEGALY, but also mistreat them, not to mention reproducing them... those animals are ecologically DEAD, even biologically alive- more or less...
... you, my friend, seems to be from the same cathegory- but you started to ask, wich is good.

Not good, BY FAR NOT GOOD AT ALL, is that you SELL "cheap tortoises", and you are not a breeder, not even a skilled keeper... considering these, you are nothing but a POACHER, selling protected animals for cheap prices, rare, endangered animals that you know nothing about and certainly much older than you!! They deserve more respect than that- being sold for a few Euro, as in Maghreb souks...

I boiled from the first moment I read your "offer", then felt even worse when realised you don't know nothing about them!!
I recently "ordered" a few tortoises to a guy exactly like you here in Romania, that advertised as well about “any size, any quantity, very cheap”, and waited for him in the main railway Bucharest station with undercover policemen and Environment Guard inspectors... he is waiting for his trial now.
From our discussions between "customer and seller" I realised he knows NOTHING about tortoises- except when and where can they be found, since he lives in their habitat- and nothing more. The monster have sold HUNDREDS of adults, and I hope he will receive not jail, but a very painful fine. He destroyed entire populations for a quick money... only pittyful change, since they are very expensive when bought from honnest breeders, but also very rare... SOB...

I just hope that you will change your view on tortoises, give up on poaching and learn about and breed them to help their conservation. if not, it is not my bussiness anymore- God will know better what deserves a poacher...