When to trust a vet's judgment? Dying tortoise :(

Homeschool Mom

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Our tortoise was diagnosed with shell rot just over 2 weeks ago when we brought him in promptly after noticing a mark on the underside of his shell. Our vet is licensed to do exotics and treats birds, reptiles, etc, although I do not know in what frequency given that we aren't in a major city area. When he was first diagnosed, the vet asked us about his enclosure and we admitted we hadn't done a good job keeping his substrate moist lately, but that he was still being soaked weekly for 20-30 minutes. She concluded it was likely dry conditions that caused the shell rot and we left the office feeling guilty and concerned. We had another appointment scheduled promptly for his shell to have the debris removed to expose the shell rot (she removed about 1/3 of the outer shell portions on his belly) so it could be treated. We were sent home with very specific instructions to soak him 5-10 min in regular water, then 5-10 minutes in water with a squirt of chlorhexidine scrub, then rinse him, let him dry. Apply silver sulfadiazine cream to wounds, bandage and return to a cage with brown paper on one side to make for easy, frequent changing to keep as clean an environment as possible, and the other side with moist, but not wet sphagnum moss. (We were told to use this rather than coconut coir because the coconut coir may work its way into bandaging if he digs.) He was also to have daily injections of Cefazolin .1 ml. All was going well for 2 weeks, and he was eating and moving around great. On day 15 he was suddenly lethargic and had bloody urine. Not really blood in urine, more like straight blood for urine. Dark red, when his diet consists of broad, leafy greens that are acceptable for his species. Made a call to the vet, got him back in again, and after a fecal (he finally defecated while in the office after having not gone 24 hours without eating/pooping) test she said there were a few protozoans and one hookworm egg, but not high quantities of either. We stopped the injections for antibiotics and were sent home with a dewormer to use for 3-5 days but a warning that if this doesn't help, he's likely gone "septic" where his shell rot ailment had taken over his system and there's likely no hope. She said we could order a blood test to determine for sure the cause, but it's expensive and doesn't feel like it would necessarily help with treatment. She said our only options if treatment for worms doesn't work would be to order the expensive tests & then he would probably need full hospitalization, including being sedated with a feeding tube and IV, and there's no promise that would save his life. I really started to question my vet's expertise in the area of reptiles when she told me that if he pulls through we will have to work on "fixing his diet" I showed her the list of foods we rotate (mostly organic: spring mix, endive, kale, turnip greens... etc, in the summer he gets dandelions, clover & plantain). She has told me in the past we should feed him carrots and cooked, cooled sweet potato & we told her we feel a diet closer to what he could've gotten in the wild is more appropriate. He thrived on this diet for the first year + we had him, and has only had health concerns lately.) She asked me what protein source he has in his diet.. umm, what? Also, I wasn't thrilled that the first appointment she drilled us about his cage conditions and after she worked on his shell she then told us it could likely have been a bacteria or parasite. I get the sense that she is just researching to figure out what to do and has maybe never treated shell rot before. She is gently leaning us toward looking at putting him to sleep, which we may have to consider if he seems to be suffering and doesn't improve. We don't have thousands of dollars for this little guy, but we do have hundreds, should I seek a second opinion?
 

Yvonne G

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I would seek a second opinion. The original shell treatment, the debridement, was ok, but after that all you really needed was to keep him dry and paint the area with anti-fungal cream.

She wanted you to use carrots or sweet potatoes for their vitamin A. That was an ok dietary choice, occasional, not full time.

It sounds like he's gone from not too bad to much worse under vet treatment. We can't really tell you what's going on or what you need to do because we're only hearing your side of the story. But I'd get a second opinion.
 

Tom

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I've never heard of shell rot being caused by dry conditions. Quite the opposite.

Carrots, sweet potato, protein source?All red flags in my opinion.

What wormer did she give you?

Shell rot does not cause a tortoise to go "septic". Its an exterior fungal infection, not an internal bacterial infection...

Sounds to me like your tortoise is suffering from drug toxicity and/or overzealous vet care.

Second opinion from a vet that is actually experienced with tortoises would be a great idea.
 

Homeschool Mom

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Thanks, Yvonne, I understand you're only hearing from me and not from the vet, I just don't know whether to seek another vet who sees reptiles regularly or whether to throw in the towel and wait for the inevitable. This whole thing has been the most heartbreaking experience, so I don't know if I am grasping at straws by wanting to see another vet or if there is valid reason to double-check in case another vet knows of some different avenue/treatment possibility.
 
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Homeschool Mom

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I was concerned about the amount of meds too... 14 days on antibiotics is a lot for a little guy and the bloody urine seemed like kidney/liver failure IMO (I am by no means a vet, but have worked in healthcare for years). I just feel unsettled that my vet was so gung-ho about one thing, then seemed to switch her focus... like I said, I just get the gut feeling she's never actually dealt with this before. Hoping it's not too late, but he's looking grim. The only thing he'll eat the last 2 days is Romaine lettuce. I know it has no nutrition for him, but at least it helps with is hydration. He won't touch his regular food and his color is poor. I am scared the meds over did it and we can't "fix" him now... :( She had chided me about his temps going from 69 at night to 95 in the basking during the day telling me that was too big of a swing in temperature change..... but that's within the realm of norms for him and he's been healthy that way for over a year The dewormer is Panacur liquid.
 

Levi the Leopard

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This sounds like quite an ordeal.

I've successfully treated shell rot using over the counter anti fungal creams, like for men's athlete's foot. So to hear about your dips and injections sounds overwhelming.

I really hope this little guy can pull through.
 

Jodie

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Sending good thoughts your way. It is frustrating when vets pretend to know what they're talking about. We trust them and have to seek their help, so it is hard to 2nd guess them. Hope this works out ok for you.
 

TurtleBug

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Shell rot does not cause a tortoise to go "septic". Its an exterior fungal infection, not an internal bacterial infection..


Shell rot can be fungal or bacterial. It can range from mild to severe. Septicemic cutaneous ulcerative disease aka SCUD is septicemia arising from shell rot and is a very serious condition. (sepsis - infection has spread through the blood stream)
 

Tidgy's Dad

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Don't give up on the little guy.
Please get a second opinion from an experienced tortoise vet.
 

Tom

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Shell rot can be fungal or bacterial. It can range from mild to severe. Septicemic cutaneous ulcerative disease aka SCUD is septicemia arising from shell rot and is a very serious condition. (sepsis - infection has spread through the blood stream)

Right. And how many cases have you seen in conditions that are too dry?
 

newCH

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Sorry your little guy is having troubles. I hope he is on the road to recovery soon !
 

Yvonne G

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You have to make the decision whether to go with your vet or not, but if it were my tortoise, I would stop the meds immediately and start soaking the tortoise daily for about a half hour to try and flush his system. In the mean time, try to find a vet who actually knows about tortoises and take your baby to this vet.
 

TurtleBug

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I've successfully treated shell rot using over the counter anti fungal creams, like for men's athlete's foot. So to hear about your dips and injections sounds overwhelming..

Not all shell rot is fungal. A vet can do a culture, or at least check a sample under a microscope, to see if it's fungal or bacterial. When shell rot affects a large area of the plastron, it's common for a vet to prescribe a systemic antibiotic (injection or oral) along with a prescription topical like silver sulfadiazine cream. Diluted Nolvasan (chlorhexidine) rinses (antibacterial & antifungal) before the topical application are also often used.
 

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Well, we sought a second opinion, because he was so weak this morning, hardly walking & I wanted to know what all our options are. Since the first vet had more or less said we are waiting to see whether he'll perk up or we're making the call of when to put him to sleep... Second vet (the whole clinic specializes in exotics and it's closer to the cities so they see more reptile traffic than ours does) confirmed what the first vet did in terms of treatment, however, added some insight. Second Vet does not feel the dry conditions caused the onset of shell rot, and took no concern to my feeding a varied broadleaf diet, but stated since the plastron was healing well the blood in the urine could either be a sign of kidney/liver failure or kidney stones. Any of those are not treatable and result in death. We did a simple blood test at this vet which indicated there is no sign of anemia or infection, so treating with further antibiotics isn't helpful. Either he will miraculously stop bleeding and heal or he will slowly get worse and die one way or the other. She said there is a greater than 50% chance he will die at this point. Doing further blood testing or an xray could determine whether it is kidney stones OR liver/kidney failure, but since neither one are treatable, what would be the point? After having gone through this experience and greived, if we got another tortoise, I wouldn't know what to do differently other than to stay on top of keeping moist substrate, I am feeling helpless but I guess I have a little more peace knowing we really are doing/have done everything we can for him. Now we wait... miserably. :( Sorry to be such a downer, but this is the reality of our "happy adoption tale."
 

Tidgy's Dad

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Well, we sought a second opinion, because he was so weak this morning, hardly walking & I wanted to know what all our options are. Since the first vet had more or less said we are waiting to see whether he'll perk up or we're making the call of when to put him to sleep... Second vet (the whole clinic specializes in exotics and it's closer to the cities so they see more reptile traffic than ours does) confirmed what the first vet did in terms of treatment, however, added some insight. Second Vet does not feel the dry conditions caused the onset of shell rot, and took no concern to my feeding a varied broadleaf diet, but stated since the plastron was healing well the blood in the urine could either be a sign of kidney/liver failure or kidney stones. Any of those are not treatable and result in death. We did a simple blood test at this vet which indicated there is no sign of anemia or infection, so treating with further antibiotics isn't helpful. Either he will miraculously stop bleeding and heal or he will slowly get worse and die one way or the other. She said there is a greater than 50% chance he will die at this point. Doing further blood testing or an xray could determine whether it is kidney stones OR liver/kidney failure, but since neither one are treatable, what would be the point? After having gone through this experience and greived, if we got another tortoise, I wouldn't know what to do differently other than to stay on top of keeping moist substrate, I am feeling helpless but I guess I have a little more peace knowing we really are doing/have done everything we can for him. Now we wait... miserably. :( Sorry to be such a downer, but this is the reality of our "happy adoption tale."
My heart goes out to you. You have done your best in a terrible situation and should not blame yourself. The poor little guy. I hope and pray that against the odds the little fellow makes it. Bless him and you.
 

Levi the Leopard

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I'm very interested to see what input you get here..

In my limited experiences, I struggle to believe that dry substrate caused such an issue. I find myself wondering (based on info given) if the first issue was something mild and non life threatening but the treatments caused the tortoise to be in the 50/50 circumstance it is in now.. ??

Because you ask about what you'd do differently if you had another, might I suggest you share as much as possible about your set up/care with this one. Include lots of enclosure photos, too. Maybe someone will see something that started the original "minor issue"..?
Just trying to help you in a way I think we can.

I'm sorry you are going through this.
 

TurtleBug

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I find myself wondering (based on info given) if the first issue was something mild and non life threatening but the treatments caused the tortoise to be in the 50/50 circumstance it is in now.. ??.


The OP posted earlier (http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hello-from-mn.113826/ ) that the Russian tortoise was adopted as an adult. Is he a wild caught one? Wild caught tortoises can be heart breakers because their acclimation to captivity can be very rocky. Infections, heavy parasite loads, stress induced illness, etc.

The OP also wrote "we noticed a spot on his plastron and took him into the vet immediately only to discover his shell has been rotting from the inside-out."

That makes it sound more serious than a mild, shell surface only case.

It's possible, especially if wild caught, that the tortoise had this shell infection already when adopted. Shell rot can "brew and hide" underneath the plastron for a long time and be (almost) unnoticeable to the keeper. The only clue may be discoloration of the shell, some dark healed looking spots, or small pitting, but no clearly visible open sores. The infection can indeed cause the shell to "rot from inside out". Once the infection is more advanced, shell ulcers start appearing and large pieces of the plastron can fall off revealing the severe and extensive infection underneath.

I personally would still get an x-ray just to know if there is/are urinary tract stones. They/some can be removed if the tortoise is otherwise healthy enough for the procedure.

Sounds like you are a very caring keeper and doing your best. I hope there's a happy ending.
 

Levi the Leopard

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The OP posted earlier (http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hello-from-mn.113826/ ) that the Russian tortoise was adopted as an adult. Is he a wild caught one? Wild caught tortoises can be heart breakers because their acclimation to captivity can be very rocky. Infections, heavy parasite loads, stress induced illness, etc.

The OP also wrote "we noticed a spot on his plastron and took him into the vet immediately only to discover his shell has been rotting from the inside-out."

That makes it sound more serious than a mild, shell surface only case.

It's possible, especially if wild caught, that the tortoise had this shell infection already when adopted. Shell rot can "brew and hide" underneath the plastron for a long time and be (almost) unnoticeable to the keeper. The only clue may be discoloration of the shell, some dark healed looking spots, or small pitting, but no clearly visible open sores. The infection can indeed cause the shell to "rot from inside out". Once the infection is more advanced, shell ulcers start appearing and large pieces of the plastron can fall off revealing the severe and extensive infection underneath.

I personally would still get an x-ray just to know if there is/are urinary tract stones. They/some can be removed if the tortoise is otherwise healthy enough for the procedure.

Sounds like you are a very caring keeper and doing your best. I hope there's a happy ending.

This is why I added a disclaimer to what I said...did you read that part?
I never saw another thread and had no other details to go off of other than what was said here.
 

ShannonC

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I'm so sorry you are going through this! "Wait and see" is not a good place to be! I will keep you all in my thoughts and I really hope things turn out well!!
 

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