I have finished finding the amount of information I wanted to find for a quick reference sheet for what turtles can live where. I looked up the natural range of the torts and average winter and summer high and lows. Let me know what you think!
Tortoise quick sheet!
- Thread starter ChuckK
- Start date
I can see that you've put a lot of work into your chart. Something like this would be a handy reference. I don't have the time to give it a double check, but I'm sure others on the forum will take a look at it for you.
Someone like @Tom needs to cast an expert eye over this
My concern is that the references to arid and desert can lead the inexperienced to think the tort is best kept on sand with little or no water when in fact they still need water and humidity to thrive. In the wild, these torts have their own strategies , eg burrowing, to ensure they are not affected by the dryer landscape.
Hmm. You're right. I was hoping to get some tips from people who breed or own these types of torts for some recommendations. I'm hoping it can be a quick reference for people picking their first tort. Lets get this list built up to the point of being useful! 
Anyone else have suggestions? I think maybe putting comments next to each species would be good. I don't have experience with them yet, though. If it looks good I'll move it to one of the beginner guide sort of sections.
If you are looking for suggestions, I agree with the above that the natural habitat description/temperature range may be misleading. Perhaps more general climate zones (tropic, sub-tropic, temperate) would be better.
You don't want the first heading to be called 'family', as that has a specific meaning in taxonomy (and they are all in the same family). I think two headings would be good - the scientific name for each species and then a list of common names (as each species goes by a few different common names, depending on where you are).
I'm not sure what sources you got your size data from, but some look a bit off to me. You also probably want to be consistent and use a range for all of them. Sizing is also tied to subspecies and regional variants, so you either need to break down each species or just use a very wide range for each.
You also have a lot of typos, but those are easy to fix.
Another column on diet might be useful - something as simple as omnivore vs herbivore or maybe more specific, depending on how much work you want to do.
You don't want the first heading to be called 'family', as that has a specific meaning in taxonomy (and they are all in the same family). I think two headings would be good - the scientific name for each species and then a list of common names (as each species goes by a few different common names, depending on where you are).
I'm not sure what sources you got your size data from, but some look a bit off to me. You also probably want to be consistent and use a range for all of them. Sizing is also tied to subspecies and regional variants, so you either need to break down each species or just use a very wide range for each.
You also have a lot of typos, but those are easy to fix.
Another column on diet might be useful - something as simple as omnivore vs herbivore or maybe more specific, depending on how much work you want to do.
Where to begin… I understand your intent, but there is a reason why something like this doesn't exist. These temperatures are way off, and temperatures for all these species are collected from weather stations where the sensors are 2 meters above the ground, in the general geographic region where these species occur. This does not necessarily reflect where these species actually spend their time. For example: Sulcatas spend 95% of their life underground, not 2 meters above ground. Also, low temps in the area of the world where Russian tortoises occur drops below 0F and highs get well over 100F. What source said 65-90? There might be a few days of the year in that range, but that is not the norm for them.
Another big factor here is that our interpretation of the wild conditions that a species would encounter is often contrary to what conditions a species actually does best in here in captivity. These "averages" from the natural ranges don't take into account the tremendous seasonal differences, and they don't take into account micro-climates like burrows. Going by your sheet, a new person might think that sulcatas need desert like conditions. The opposite is true. In the wild, they hatch at the start of the rainy season when its hot, humid, wet, rainy and there are puddles and marshes everywhere. This doesn't sound very desert-like to me. And during the drier seasons, they are underground in damp warm burrows. Incorrect assumptions and speculation about what happens in the wild has done a major dis-service to so many species. Sulcatas being one of them. Reading your sheet, a person might think that a sulcata would thrive here in the CA desert with dry conditions and cool nights. They don't. Many of them have died over the last three decades because of this sort of incorrect assumption. They actually thrive and do best in conditions that mimic their tropical monsoon season conditions. Hot temps, lots of rain and very high humidity. Think south Florida or New Orleans in summer. Thick, almost unbearable humidity, and relentless heat day and night.
In fact most species do much better with higher humidity as babies. Higher than what we have previously though might be the case.
The best course of action for someone wanting to learn about what species might be best for their area is to ask other keepers experienced with that species. Even better if the person is in the same general area. The care sheets on this forum are a good start, but nothing will beat an actual back and forth conversation with a keeper who has many years of experience raising the species of interest.
Another big factor here is that our interpretation of the wild conditions that a species would encounter is often contrary to what conditions a species actually does best in here in captivity. These "averages" from the natural ranges don't take into account the tremendous seasonal differences, and they don't take into account micro-climates like burrows. Going by your sheet, a new person might think that sulcatas need desert like conditions. The opposite is true. In the wild, they hatch at the start of the rainy season when its hot, humid, wet, rainy and there are puddles and marshes everywhere. This doesn't sound very desert-like to me. And during the drier seasons, they are underground in damp warm burrows. Incorrect assumptions and speculation about what happens in the wild has done a major dis-service to so many species. Sulcatas being one of them. Reading your sheet, a person might think that a sulcata would thrive here in the CA desert with dry conditions and cool nights. They don't. Many of them have died over the last three decades because of this sort of incorrect assumption. They actually thrive and do best in conditions that mimic their tropical monsoon season conditions. Hot temps, lots of rain and very high humidity. Think south Florida or New Orleans in summer. Thick, almost unbearable humidity, and relentless heat day and night.
In fact most species do much better with higher humidity as babies. Higher than what we have previously though might be the case.
The best course of action for someone wanting to learn about what species might be best for their area is to ask other keepers experienced with that species. Even better if the person is in the same general area. The care sheets on this forum are a good start, but nothing will beat an actual back and forth conversation with a keeper who has many years of experience raising the species of interest.
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http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/joc.1276/full
This text is a global climate datasheet that can be used in GIS mapping systems (sorta like GPS). This was a part of my thesis work. I went to many seminars where people debated this kind of data, for it's quality and utility.
Tom points out many pitfalls with this kind of data, and there are many more as well not so far mentioned.
But there are some good things about it, so maybe I'll focus on that.
For instance we do know that sulcata spend time underground. Those air temps are a good place to start in regards to what is going on where the sulcata live. Some people may indeed see those temps and say "well I should provide those temps and we are done - perfect sulcata habitat". Well of course it is not done, and we know that - not through trial and error raising many sulcata, but by reading a bit more. We know that because we also know a bit about sulcata lifestyle (natural history) by reading some little bits about HOW they live in those areas. As I showed for Egyptian tortoises here http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-8#post-1325292
There is the gross climate and there is the micro climate (the climate withing the climate). All animals modify their place of life to some extent or another. Burrow digging tortoises may be at the apex of this thing biologists call niche modification. Well aside from humans. The tortoises take where they live and modify it to their needs.
So that kind of climate chart is a starting point for inquiry and in that sense it is useful. It is not a temperature recipe.
Another place a bit less 'academic' feeling than that first link is http://www.fallingrain.com/world/index.html where you can click on many many places around the world and get the annual weather pattern.
You still have to sort out the micro climate. Micro climate is where in the bigger area the actual tortoise chooses to spend it time.
More difficult to ascertain is when in those averaged annual cycles do the tortoises excel at their life, not just endure it until they can excel again. For example, tortoises are very long lived, and end up in some of the harshest places, not because they had a road map and chose those places. It's because at one time there was much abundance and tortoises were among many animals living there. They persist as they live long and can wait it out for those optimal years. It may take two or three optimal years in a 20 year cycle for them to be able to persist, when other animal competing for the same resources couldn't persist when the optimal years out of 20 was less than five. Tortoises win the persistence contest.
This text is a global climate datasheet that can be used in GIS mapping systems (sorta like GPS). This was a part of my thesis work. I went to many seminars where people debated this kind of data, for it's quality and utility.
Tom points out many pitfalls with this kind of data, and there are many more as well not so far mentioned.
But there are some good things about it, so maybe I'll focus on that.
For instance we do know that sulcata spend time underground. Those air temps are a good place to start in regards to what is going on where the sulcata live. Some people may indeed see those temps and say "well I should provide those temps and we are done - perfect sulcata habitat". Well of course it is not done, and we know that - not through trial and error raising many sulcata, but by reading a bit more. We know that because we also know a bit about sulcata lifestyle (natural history) by reading some little bits about HOW they live in those areas. As I showed for Egyptian tortoises here http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/live-naked-people.126107/page-8#post-1325292
There is the gross climate and there is the micro climate (the climate withing the climate). All animals modify their place of life to some extent or another. Burrow digging tortoises may be at the apex of this thing biologists call niche modification. Well aside from humans. The tortoises take where they live and modify it to their needs.
So that kind of climate chart is a starting point for inquiry and in that sense it is useful. It is not a temperature recipe.
Another place a bit less 'academic' feeling than that first link is http://www.fallingrain.com/world/index.html where you can click on many many places around the world and get the annual weather pattern.
You still have to sort out the micro climate. Micro climate is where in the bigger area the actual tortoise chooses to spend it time.
More difficult to ascertain is when in those averaged annual cycles do the tortoises excel at their life, not just endure it until they can excel again. For example, tortoises are very long lived, and end up in some of the harshest places, not because they had a road map and chose those places. It's because at one time there was much abundance and tortoises were among many animals living there. They persist as they live long and can wait it out for those optimal years. It may take two or three optimal years in a 20 year cycle for them to be able to persist, when other animal competing for the same resources couldn't persist when the optimal years out of 20 was less than five. Tortoises win the persistence contest.
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Thank you guys very much! I had the same sorts of concerns when making the thing. I'll keep working at it and see what else I can do! I'll try to embed the care sheet pages and modify the other data to better suit the person looking to adopt. Could I get some owners of the listed tort types to pm me so I can include a tortoise fourm contact to direct people to?
If you take a look at our breeder list, it shows quite a few of our members and the species they breed.
And the care sheets that are permanently at the top of each species section also have keeper names.
I like your intent. Many times people come onto the forum asking what kind of tortoise they should get. I'd find it helpful to see all the available species on one table comparing size, temperature and housing requirements, food, etc.
Could you link the breeder list? I Havn't been able to find it in a few days.
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