Tortoise project for school!

[TechnoCheese]

Hi! Every year in Texas, schools have a huge project for GT students (gifted and talented, which is basically honors. In my school district, if you're in GT you do work that is two years ahead than the grade you're in. For example, I'm in 7th grade but I'm doing 7th, 8th, and 9th grade work.) called TPSP (Texas performance standards project), or R4D (research 4 discovery). We have November through march to do it. I'm planning on doing a project on the effects of pyramiding for tortoises, and a possible way to stop pyramiding once it's already begun. Some people might think it's impossible, but thats the whole point of this project. I have to do research that will hopefully lead to a great discovery and help others with the problem I'm trying to fix.

Let's say you are a tortoise rescuer, and you have found a sulcata tortoise that had terrible owners that had him in the driest possible set up and were feeding it dog food (I actually found a terrible story like this on youtube, where the owners had drilled holes in the corners of a sulcata's shell and and attached a handle to pick it up ). It has the worst case of pyramiding you have ever seen, and all you want to do is fix it's shell. What do you do?

When I joined this forum, I saw just how little I had learned from from youtube and the internet. If I hadn't found this forum, my tort would be dead! I had been researching for OVER A YEAR, and I didn't know you where supposed to soak tortoises until I saw a post on here! I sincerely thank everyone on this forum, because without you guys, I would never have been able to get my sully I have now. I'm hoping everyone can help me on these five months of research, so I can be ready by March. It's always great to have primary resources!

Im going to start by starting a graph of my tortoises weight and recording it every week. I'm going to post the first records tomorrow, seeing as it's 11 pm and I have school in the morning. Hurray for six hours of sleep :/. It would be great if someone could help me with finding the exact causes of pyramiding, and exactly how and why the body makes pyramiding happen.

Again, I can't thank you guys enough for what you do here. I know I'm just rambling at this point, but I sincerely mean everything I've said about everyone on the forum.

 

[Big Charlie]

Do a search on the forum for pyramiding. There are many discussions about it.
Here are a couple: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-cause-of-pyramiding.143520/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pyramiding-is-due-to-excess-heat-not-lack-of-humidity.138157/

 

[Yvonne G]

There's still a lot of controversy regarding what causes pyramiding. We have very reputable members living in Arizona who don't think pyramiding is caused by lack of humidity, and have the smooth tortoises to prove it.

You've undertaken a project that hasn't been proven yet. Hope it works out for you.

 

[Gillian M]

There's still a lot of controversy regarding what causes pyramiding. We have very reputable members living in Arizona who don't think pyramiding is caused by lack of humidity, and have the smooth tortoises to prove it.

You've undertaken a project that hasn't been proven yet. Hope it works out for you.

Hi Yvonne. Then what on earth is it that causes pyramiding? We always advise new members to: soak their torts in warm water AND keep the enclosure humid so as to AVOID PYRAMIDING (and dehydration).

Appreciate an answer.

Thanks.

 

[Yvonne G]

Keeping babies in a warm, humid environment helps them grow smoothly, but many people don't keep babies in a warm humid environment and they are able to grow smooth tortoises. We just don't know scientifically.

 

[Big Charlie]

Keeping babies in a warm, humid environment helps them grow smoothly, but many people don't keep babies in a warm humid environment and they are able to grow smooth tortoises. We just don't know scientifically.

Charlie is one of those. He was soaked daily in the beginning. I don't remember how long I did it, probably less than a year. His enclosure was open and there was no attempt to provide humidity. In California, we have no humidity in the air. Once he was 5, he lived outside full time. Part of that time he dug a burrow. I think the burrow helps with humidity. He hasn't had one in the last 2 years and I wish he would dig another.

One of the things I did right was give him weeds from the very beginning. I had guinea pigs at the time so I gathered weeds for them too. We lived on a large undeveloped plot of land with a lake so there were plenty of weeds. I didn't use a tortoise table to determine what was healthy. I just picked things that looked tasty, not fuzzy.

I think he was probably raised right in the very beginning by the breeder and has good genetics. Maybe one or both of those things are the most important ways to get smooth shells.

 

[Big Charlie]

Hi! Every year in Texas, schools have a huge project for GT students (gifted and talented, which is basically honors. In my school district, if you're in GT you do work that is two years ahead than the grade you're in. For example, I'm in 7th grade but I'm doing 7th, 8th, and 9th grade work.) called TPSP (Texas performance standards project), or R4D (research 4 discovery). We have November through march to do it. I'm planning on doing a project on the effects of pyramiding for tortoises, and a possible way to stop pyramiding once it's already begun. Some people might think it's impossible, but thats the whole point of this project. I have to do research that will hopefully lead to a great discovery and help others with the problem I'm trying to fix.

Let's say you are a tortoise rescuer, and you have found a sulcata tortoise that had terrible owners that had him in the driest possible set up and were feeding it dog food (I actually found a terrible story like this on youtube, where the owners had drilled holes in the corners of a sulcata's shell and and attached a handle to pick it up ). It has the worst case of pyramiding you have ever seen, and all you want to do is fix it's shell. What do you do?

When I joined this forum, I saw just how little I had learned from from youtube and the internet. If I hadn't found this forum, my tort would be dead! I had been researching for OVER A YEAR, and I didn't know you where supposed to soak tortoises until I saw a post on here! I sincerely thank everyone on this forum, because without you guys, I would never have been able to get my sully I have now. I'm hoping everyone can help me on these five months of research, so I can be ready by March. It's always great to have primary resources!

Im going to start by starting a graph of my tortoises weight and recording it every week. I'm going to post the first records tomorrow, seeing as it's 11 pm and I have school in the morning. Hurray for six hours of sleep :/. It would be great if someone could help me with finding the exact causes of pyramiding, and exactly how and why the body makes pyramiding happen.

Again, I can't thank you guys enough for what you do here. I know I'm just rambling at this point, but I sincerely mean everything I've said about everyone on the forum.

Any documentation you do with your tortoise is anecdotal information. It doesn't prove anything. The only way to prove that something works is to have a controlled experiment where you have at least two groups and vary the one thing you want to test.
You might be able to gather information on other tortoises from the forum to add to your study but since everyone on the forum is getting the same advice, you aren't getting the entire picture.

You should also think about whether a bumpy shell is just cosmetic. It takes awhile before pyramiding causes internal problems. Those are the problems you want to fix. There are people who have made replacement shells, using a 3-D printer, for tortoises who were injured in a fire.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

@TechnoCheese . No matter the outcome of your experiment it will be interesting to look at what you do. Super bright kid or not, the process of the investigation is the lesson more than the sought outcome. To get some cool result is, well, cool.

Try to test no more than one or two variables. More than that makes it more than well established scientists have pulled off on this topic. One variable actually seems to have flummoxed several experiments by PhD's. I imagine you'll have advisers pushing much on you, keep it simple and straight forward. No result is a result.

 

[Anyfoot]

There's still a lot of controversy regarding what causes pyramiding. We have very reputable members living in Arizona who don't think pyramiding is caused by lack of humidity, and have the smooth tortoises to prove it.

You've undertaken a project that hasn't been proven yet. Hope it works out for you.

Do you know if the members living in Arizona believe in growing the torts slow as possible?

 

[TechnoCheese]

Any documentation you do with your tortoise is anecdotal information. It doesn't prove anything. The only way to prove that something works is to have a controlled experiment where you have at least two groups and vary the one thing you want to test.
You might be able to gather information on other tortoises from the forum to add to your study but since everyone on the forum is getting the same advice, you aren't getting the entire picture.

You should also think about whether a bumpy shell is just cosmetic. It takes awhile before pyramiding causes internal problems. Those are the problems you want to fix. There are people who have made replacement shells, using a 3-D printer, for tortoises who were injured in a fire.

Hi! Im really sorry I didn't clarify, the graph is just for me to chart his growth just so I can look back at it later, and it might be helpful if I notice his growth drastically dropped or something. Actually, I'm not really sure why I'm posting it here. But, I guess it's a good place to store it lol!

 

[Tom]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry.

If a tortoise is growing smooth in AZ or anywhere else, then those conditions were not too dry. One of our AZ members with a smooth young tortoise was using a swamp cooler in his reptile room with open tubs of water and tanks all around for his aquatic species. Others report their tortoises use burrows. I really don't know how a sulcata would survive in the Phoenix area without a burrow for most of the year there.

 

[TechnoCheese]

heres my graph! There's really no point in having it here, but maybe I can find a way to incorporate it into my project. The first two points are the first points I had plotted in my old science notebook. I was planning on continuing, but I got busy with summer homework. They where 52 g and 66 g. The last one I took today (9 weeks later) and was 96 g. I plan on adding a new point every week.

 

[cmacusa3]

All I can say is I'm extremely impressed that a 7th grader has been tying and doing all this. Can you tutor my 8th and 11th graders . Keep up the good work!!

 

[wellington]

Keeping babies in a warm, humid environment helps them grow smoothly, but many people don't keep babies in a warm humid environment and they are able to grow smooth tortoises. We just don't know scientifically.

I don't really remember seeing these tortoises you mention. I have seen some adults in AZ that are smooth, but, where were they raised? I have seen many AZ torts that are not smooth, young and old. I'd love to know the real story behind the adults or sub adults that are smooth, from the day they were hatched, where exactly and now they were raised. I have a hard time believing an AZ tort without humidity can grow smooth. I have seen some AZ torts and from other places with high humidity and they still aren't smooth. My leopard hatchling has hatched and lived in a very humid environment to this day and still has some slight pyramiding.

 

[wellington]

Charlie is one of those. He was soaked daily in the beginning. I don't remember how long I did it, probably less than a year. His enclosure was open and there was no attempt to provide humidity. In California, we have no humidity in the air. Once he was 5, he lived outside full time. Part of that time he dug a burrow. I think the burrow helps with humidity. He hasn't had one in the last 2 years and I wish he would dig another.

One of the things I did right was give him weeds from the very beginning. I had guinea pigs at the time so I gathered weeds for them too. We lived on a large undeveloped plot of land with a lake so there were plenty of weeds. I didn't use a tortoise table to determine what was healthy. I just picked things that looked tasty, not fuzzy.

I think he was probably raised right in the very beginning by the breeder and has good genetics. Maybe one or both of those things are the most important ways to get smooth shells.

The soaking, possibly the burrow and well the lake all equals humidity/hydration. It might not have been the 80% but, it wasn't as hot and dry as you might have thought.

 

[wellington]

I don't remember if way back when @Tom had ever said if he tried a lower humidity level or if he just went with the 80% because of his research of the area the sullies and leopards are from and the hatching season rains. However, it could be possible that the percentage of humidity could be lower for some species and areas to others. If you look at a lot of high humidity Florida tortoises, there is still a lot of pyramiding. Possibly it's humidity and hydration both. Years ago and sadly even today, some think that tortoises don't need water every day.

 

[Big Charlie]

The soaking, possibly the burrow and well the lake all equals humidity/hydration. It might not have been the 80% but, it wasn't as hot and dry as you might have thought.

Charlie didn't have access to the lake or a burrow when we lived there for the first 5 years of his life. I used to put him out sometimes in the unused pig pen, which was a long way from the lake, or followed him around as he explored, but he was mostly inside in an uncovered aquarium with a CHE and lights.

 

[TechnoCheese]

All I can say is I'm extremely impressed that a 7th grader has been tying and doing all this. Can you tutor my 8th and 11th graders . Keep up the good work!!

Thanks for the support!

 

[TechnoCheese]

So I was wondering, what if you used something to mold a tortoises shell into the correct shape while it was growing? Sort of like if a baby has flat head syndrome, they are sometimes given a helmet/headband to help mold their heads."The helmets work best if used between the ages of 4 and 12 months, when a child grows the fastest and the bones are most moldable. They work by applying gentle but constant pressure on a baby's growing skull in an effort to redirect the growth." I understand that it probably wouldn't work, but would it be possible to create somewhat of a mold to put over the shell? Maybe if it was 5-10 years old when it starts growing faster?

 

[TechnoCheese]

So I was wondering, what if you used something to mold a tortoises shell into the correct shape while it was growing? Sort of like if a baby has flat head syndrome, they are sometimes given a helmet/headband to help mold their heads."The helmets work best if used between the ages of 4 and 12 months, when a child grows the fastest and the bones are most moldable. They work by applying gentle but constant pressure on a baby's growing skull in an effort to redirect the growth." I understand that it probably wouldn't work, but would it be possible to create somewhat of a mold to put over the shell? Maybe if it was 5-10 years old when it starts growing faster?

And could it also be used for hatchlings that are born with an oddly shaped shell? Their shells are softer then, so it would be like the first sentence in the quote.