Tortoise laws & The Vet

[Terry Allan Hall]

Ummm.... to everyone who thinks they can buy an under 4" chelonian from a business and use the 'science, education, or display' exception- that is not usually true. The actual exception under discussion reads, in full...
"(d)Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:
(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets." (emphasis mine)

In other words, you'd better be able to prove you have a valid scientific, exhibition (as in zoo), or educational purpose (class pet is probably not enough). That last bit clearly states that use as a pet does NOT qualify as any of the other points.

We in this end of the hobby may not like this rule, but it is indeed serving several good points. Nesting sites are not being strip-mined of eggs and babies so much any more, especially in the US. Millions of tiny chelonians are not dying in shipment, or being purchased by people with no idea how to care for them and dying after a few months of asinine cares. Many species that were endangered in the US because of the food and pet trades are safer today because there is less profit in babies and eggs.

Just because a law is not enforced perfectly is no reason to get rid of it. No law is enforced perfectly.

Please understand that the above comments are not meant to imply that I think the law or its enforcement is perfect or even necessarily a good idea

We have several "flea markets" around the D/FW area and there's a booth at each one, nearly every weekend between April and October, each w/ a "kiddie pool" full of baby RESs and stacks of those tiny plastic kidney-shaped "turtle homes" and each will have a large, prominently displayed pre-printed sign stating "turtles under 4" sold only for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes"...

This has been going on for possibly 10 years, that I've seen.

 

[Madkins007]

We have several "flea markets" around the D/FW area and there's a booth at each one, nearly every weekend between April and October, each w/ a "kiddie pool" full of baby RESs and stacks of those tiny plastic kidney-shaped "turtle homes" and each will have a large, prominently displayed pre-printed sign stating "turtles under 4" sold only for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes"...

This has been going on for possibly 10 years, that I've seen.

Happens here, too. Is it the fact that hustlers are trying to rip you off that surprises you, or the fact that the agencies that enforce the laws don't have the resources to monitor flea markets?

One on-line turtle store that sells babies used to make their buyers purjure themselves by signing a statement that the turtles they buy are for the 'usual' reasons. All of these sellers seem to 'forget' to list out the second part of the exception, and many of them either change 'exhibit' to 'display' (almost but not quite the same), or leave out the 'bona fide'. Of course, none of that lessens their guilt.

The odd thing is that the flea market people might not need to worry about it if they do it apart from a real business. For a lot of people at flea markets, this is just an 'pin money' thing, no business license, no resell or tax exempt statements, etc. Of course, the folks who provide THEM with the babies would then be in clear violation... unless it is kids gathering them from treatment ponds or some hobbyist breeder not doing it as a business.

In some large Asiatic communities or large ethnic supermarkets you can buy live small turtles and eggs as food, which is either sliding under the radar, or falls in some other category not listed in the 4" regulations .

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

We have several "flea markets" around the D/FW area and there's a booth at each one, nearly every weekend between April and October, each w/ a "kiddie pool" full of baby RESs and stacks of those tiny plastic kidney-shaped "turtle homes" and each will have a large, prominently displayed pre-printed sign stating "turtles under 4" sold only for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes"...

This has been going on for possibly 10 years, that I've seen.

Happens here, too. Is it the fact that hustlers are trying to rip you off that surprises you, or the fact that the agencies that enforce the laws don't have the resources to monitor flea markets?

Neither...I've long understood that a society that has too many unimportant/useless laws, the important ones get treated as the same.

One on-line turtle store that sells babies used to make their buyers purjure themselves by signing a statement that the turtles they buy are for the 'usual' reasons. All of these sellers seem to 'forget' to list out the second part of the exception, and many of them either change 'exhibit' to 'display' (almost but not quite the same), or leave out the 'bona fide'. Of course, none of that lessens their guilt.

The odd thing is that the flea market people might not need to worry about it if they do it apart from a real business.

Judging from the identicalness of the signs, and the number of baby turtles selling at $5 per, plus the price of the "turtle bowls", it's a very large business, w/ several "locations"...it's likely that each booth sells a few hundred baby RESs minimum EVERY Sat. and Sun., and this enterprise is at at least a dozen flea markets in this area, alone...no idea how many booths this enterprise has in all, except that I've seen the same sign at a flea market in San Antonio, too

It's quite possible that these folks sell 5,000 baby RESs every weekend, counting every flea-market's "contribution", and I doubt any are becoming soup.

For a lot of people at flea markets, this is just an 'pin money' thing, no business license, no resell or tax exempt statements, etc. Of course, the folks who provide THEM with the babies would then be in clear violation... unless it is kids gathering them from treatment ponds or some hobbyist breeder not doing it as a business.

In some large Asiatic communities or large ethnic supermarkets you can buy live small turtles and eggs as food, which is either sliding under the radar, or falls in some other category not listed in the 4" regulations .

Conclusion: this law is unenforcable.

 

[carbonated]

Wow thanks everyone for the replies, great info! As an aside, what is the ideal humidity for a small Hermann's tortoise? I'm wondering if thats part of whats causing him to be lethargic.

Er, anyone? Think my post may have gotten lost in between the huge legal debates

 

[Madkins007]

Conclusion: this law is unenforcable.

Have you reported them? Like many such laws, it depends at least in part on vigilant and knowledgeable citizens making a report... rather like most OSHA rules, etc.

I know that many people on forums like this would ever report such a thing because of their love for the animals, but the dealers here are not only breaking the law and profiting from it, but they are also directly responsible for the deaths of untold baby turtles in the ways they are collected, shipped, and displayed as well as contributing to the deaths of the babies they sell to people who are poorly prepared for the responsibility.

Again, please understand that I am NOT trying to argue that the law is perfect, or even a good idea in general. Although I WILL admit that the rampant spread of released Red-ear Sliders around the world because of this trade really ticks me off.

 

[Yvonne G]

Wow thanks everyone for the replies, great info! As an aside, what is the ideal humidity for a small Hermann's tortoise? I'm wondering if thats part of whats causing him to be lethargic.

Er, anyone? Think my post may have gotten lost in between the huge legal debates

I'm sorry, Carbonated...(did you ever tell us your name or where you are?):

As you can see, we're very dedicated and opinionated on certain subjects.

As for the humidity issue with your Hermann's...no, I don't think that's the issue. Do you give him a soak occasionally (in something that he can't climb out of)? What is the temperature in his habitat? What are you offering as food? Do you keep the lights on for 14 hours a day?

This is the time of year some tortoises think they are supposed to hibernate (brumate), and it sometimes hard to make them realize they don't have to.

Because your tortoise is so young, it may just be the prey thing, that is, he hides because he's afraid. If he eats every day I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Conclusion: this law is unenforcable.

Have you reported them? Like many such laws, it depends at least in part on vigilant and knowledgeable citizens making a report... rather like most OSHA rules, etc.

Several times, once to a Code Enforcement Officer right in front of one of the booths...his answer? "I'll look into it, but as far as I'm aware, no law is being broken".

I know that many people on forums like this would ever report such a thing because of their love for the animals, but the dealers here are not only breaking the law and profiting from it, but they are also directly responsible for the deaths of untold baby turtles in the ways they are collected, shipped, and displayed as well as contributing to the deaths of the babies they sell to people who are poorly prepared for the responsibility.

Again, please understand that I am NOT trying to argue that the law is perfect, or even a good idea in general. Although I WILL admit that the rampant spread of released Red-ear Sliders around the world because of this trade really ticks me off.

Agreed.

aren't vague laws with loopholes fun?

All laws seem to have loopholes...some just require a bit more searching!

 

[dmmj]

aren't vague laws with loopholes fun?

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Wow thanks everyone for the replies, great info! As an aside, what is the ideal humidity for a small Hermann's tortoise? I'm wondering if thats part of whats causing him to be lethargic.

Er, anyone? Think my post may have gotten lost in between the huge legal debates

Sorry...Hermann's do well in a enviroment that's not excessively damp, but not really a desert, either...moderate humidity.

My 4 live outside from about mid-April 'til mid-October and do well. During summer they have a large water dish (formerly a bar tray) that they can, and do, climb into:

Over winter, they have a home in our kitchen, and they soak 2-3X a week.

Hope this helps.