Swollen eyes after hibernation

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GeoTerraTestudo

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Hi guys,

My Russian tortoise pair has been hibernating in the same bin in the same fridge since November (almost four months), and I have been checking up on them at least once a week. This morning when I went to check on them, I saw that the surface of their substrate was disturbed. I took that to mean one or both of them was ready to emerge from hibernation, so I took them out.

I gave them both a warm bath, and put them back in their regular enclosures. Both were groggy, of course, but the female seemed bright-eyed and fine. For the male, however, both eyes were swollen shut with a layer of whitish material over them. He rubbed his eyes and the white matter fell away, but both eyes are still swollen shut, and I am concerned.

Both tortoises were nice and plump before going into hibernation. Their fridge maintained a temperature of 40+/-2*F all winter long, and I misted their hibernaculum at least once per week. So, I would not have expected eye problems, because the tortoises should not have experienced frost, dehydration, or starvation. Nevertheless, when I picked them up, they seemed quite light to me.

Do you think this means my tortoises are dehydrated, starving, or both? Could the male could have suffered frost damage to his eyes, and that he might have been blinded? Or is this something common that he will simply come out of soon?

I was planning to continue giving them daily warm water baths, and to start offering them food tomorrow. Does this sound good? Is there anything else I should be doing, especially for the male with the swollen eyes? Please advise, as I am a bit worried about him.
 

Katherine

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Laura said:

I am quite certain he meant + or - 2* as in 2 degrees of variance, so from 38-42* maximum range. No one in their right mind would hibernate at negative 2* degrees : )

I am so sorry to read this, hope he recovers well. Unfortunately I have no experience with this so can't do anything but wish you and your little one the best!
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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katherine said:
Laura said:

I am quite certain he meant + or - 2* as in 2 degrees of variance, so from 38-42* maximum range. No one in their right mind would hibernate at negative 2* degrees : )

I am so sorry to read this, hope he recovers well. Unfortunately I have no experience with this so can't do anything but wish you and your little one the best!

Correct: I hibernated them at 38-42*F.

Thanks, Katherine. Hopefully he's just groggy, or only a little dehydrated. We'll see what others say, but I hope he'll be feeling better real soon.
 

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Time for the hospital tank. Place him in a smaller indoor habitat with a constant overall temp of 80+ degrees. Soak him daily for at least 15 minutes in Gerber strained carrots mixed half and half with warm water. You should see an improvement in about 3 days.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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emysemys said:
Time for the hospital tank. Place him in a smaller indoor habitat with a constant overall temp of 80+ degrees. Soak him daily for at least 15 minutes in Gerber strained carrots mixed half and half with warm water. You should see an improvement in about 3 days.

Okay, I'll do that. Sounds like you've seen this before. What is wrong, exactly?
 

dmmj

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I think you have said before that your russians don't seem to bruminate well for some reason. My russians are starting to wake up, but I fear this is only a brief warm spell here in california.They more than likely expended energy and lost weight during the winter time. I just checked on my guys today and I did not notice any discernible weight loss, despite this winter being warmer than usual. I would imagine they are both hungry and thirsty if you plan on keeping them up for now, I would start feeding and soaking them, if you plan on putting them back down, warm soaks can't hurt. I often soak mine during the winter time on warmer days.
 

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
Okay, I'll do that. Sounds like you've seen this before. What is wrong, exactly?

I don't think he was all the way into the brumation state. So it was like he was not eating for all that time. The swollen eyes usually is a lack of vitamin A and that's from not eating. Of course, swollen eyes can also be a symptom of other illnesses, the one I told you about is just the most common.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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dmmj said:
I think you have said before that your russians don't seem to bruminate well for some reason. My russians are starting to wake up, but I fear this is only a brief warm spell here in california.They more than likely expended energy and lost weight during the winter time. I just checked on my guys today and I did not notice any discernible weight loss, despite this winter being warmer than usual. I would imagine they are both hungry and thirsty if you plan on keeping them up for now, I would start feeding and soaking them, if you plan on putting them back down, warm soaks can't hurt. I often soak mine during the winter time on warmer days.

What I said was that, back in November, they were trying to brumate in their regular indoor enclosures at room temperature. I would have overwintered them, but they burrowed and were fasting, so that's why I put them in the refrigerator.

Yes, I'm just going to keep them up at this point. Nearly 4 months of brumation should be plenty.

Okay, so I'll give them warm soaks and food. I hope poor little Mork is okay. :(

emysemys said:
GeoTerraTestudo said:
Okay, I'll do that. Sounds like you've seen this before. What is wrong, exactly?

I don't think he was all the way into the brumation state. So it was like he was not eating for all that time. The swollen eyes usually is a lack of vitamin A and that's from not eating. Of course, swollen eyes can also be a symptom of other illnesses, the one I told you about is just the most common.

I see. Oh my gosh. :(

Okay, I've seen that eye problem in box turtles. I would think Vitamin A eye drops would be good to use, too?
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Why would one of them be in a deeper state of brumation than the other, if they were both in the same box in the same refrigerator?
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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I gave Mork a carrot bath this morning; I have never seen a tortoise drink that much in my life. I set him down in the bath and watched him. He seemed to appreciate the warmth and the moisture. Then he dipped his chin below the surface and drank for probably about 2 straight minutes. Poor little guy must be so dehydrated. He did open his eyes for a bit, although they're shut again now. Hopefully he'll improve more tomorrow.
 

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Geo...sounds as though your one with the eye situation may have had one of those hidden ailments likely prior to going into brumation......

I would follow what Yvonne has suggested. And they should take a really long drink coming out of brumation...I would not necessarily take that as a sign of high level of dehydration though...I have a CDT here, the old man, that sinks his head all the time and drinks forever and another of them drinks like he is a submarine and they are both good pee'rs and poppers as well....

The first thing that came to mind reading your posts was...I wonder if that one cooled down at a much more rapid rate? The other tortoise may have been warmer going into the fridge than the other...do you do a gradual fridge cool down or do you set the fridge temp and then just place them in? A rapid drop in temps could and does matter...the eyes are the most sensitive tissue you know?

So I would follow what Yvonne gave and keep that going for at least a week or ten days--even when he comes around I would make sure to do this for 10 days...also it would not hurt to offer the same treatment to the other tortoise :D.



Are you able to post a pic? Will you please?
 

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You don't really know how much they're drinking by how long they're drinking. If you watch the throat you can see them swallow, and it sometimes is about 5 or 6 seconds between gulps. They drink very slowly. I'm very glad that he drank the mixture. That means he will be getting the benefit of the nutrients much faster than if he didn't drink it.
 

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To prepare them for hibernation, I let them fast for two weeks with the basking CHE off. So, ambient air temperature was about 70*F throughout their pens at that point, without any hot spot (they had been burrowed and fasting on their own for several weeks prior to that, even with the hot spot on). Then, when it was time to put them in the fridge, I kept the fridge on its minimal ("defrost") setting for a couple days, so their temperature at that point was about 50*F. Then, I toned it down to its first setting, arriving at its final temperature of about 40*F.

Even though the female's eyes are clear, and she is feeding normally, I have still been treating her as if her eyes are swollen. That way, if the problem is indeed hypovitaminosis A, and the treatment is helping the male, it certainly wouldn't hurt her to get a little more warmth, moisture, and vitamins in her, either - especially after hibernation. As it turns out, I have seen a little bit of discharge coming out of her right eye, too, so she might also be a bit vitamin A deficient, although to a much lesser degree than the male. Hard to say why one got through hibernation basically without a hitch, while the other has this problem. I did hear the male scratching in the hibernaculum from time to time, but the female hardly budged, as far as I could tell, until one or both was trying to emerge a couple days ago. So, maybe it's true that he did not brumate as deeply as she did. I don't know why that should be the case, but if hypovitaminosis A is indeed the problem, I can only speculate that it's because she generally eats more than he does (he's generally more active, but eats less).

Anyway, for the past two days, I have continued the treatment for the male (and the female). I have been keeping them warm, and giving them 15-minute warm carrot baths in the morning, as well as administering vitamin A drops into their eyes. I've also resumed feeding them plenty of spring mix and moist Mazuri and Grassland foods, sprinkled with calcium and vitamin D3.

As requested, here is a picture of the male with his eyes swollen shut:

dscn1176c.jpg


As I said, the female's eyes are normal (or nearly normal), and she has been feeding well. As for the male, with his eyes swollen shut, he has been unable to feed. Actually, this morning he did start opening his eyes a little bit after he got his carrot bath and eye drops. He did come to the feeding bowl, but his vision must still be blurry, because he had a tough time feeding, and only managed to basically lick a couple leaves of lettuce before giving up. He's basking now, so hopefully he'll try again later.

Thanks for your help, everyone. Looks like the treatment is helping so far. I'll keep you posted.
 

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Always good to hear some good news.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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More good news: I just checked in on them, and the male is feeding now. He seems to have a little trouble seeing the leaves, but once they're in his mouth, he can go through them pretty well. I am relieved at this, because I think that once he starts getting nourishment into his body himself, he should start getting better much faster.

BTW - I forgot to mention that the supplement I sprinkle on their food (T-Rex brand) contains not only calcium and vitamin D3, but also beta carotene and vitamins A and C. So again, I am glad he is starting to get vitamin A and other nutrients - and of course, water and energy - into his system on his own again. :)
 

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Geo I am so glad that there is improvement! I have only one concern....you can disregard this entirely of course :D you say that you are using vitamin a eye drops right...have you a dosage chart to know how much and how often you should be administering? I only asked because vitamin a eyedrops can be toxic and deadly just as injections if the dosage is not measured adequately .....I would wonder if it would not be better to offer vitamin a via consumption as a safer alternative? Pumpkin, dandelions..and the like foods high in vitamin a? Again, it is only a concern that popped in mind...I mean I can appreciate the sense of urgency when seeing eyes in that condition coupled with emergence from brumation...and being that it is both eyes I would also initially suspect vitamin a deficiency, however, there is no way to know this for certain and administering too much vitamin a just kinda worries me...how is his behavior with breathing also is he clear on the nose? Is he relatively thin or is he near what he was when he went in? If he has this situation and you say that the other tort has a slight symptom similar then perhaps he went in a little deficient you know?

Nonetheless, I am so happy he is trucking along :D
 

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ascott said:
Geo I am so glad that there is improvement! I have only one concern....you can disregard this entirely of course :D you say that you are using vitamin a eye drops right...have you a dosage chart to know how much and how often you should be administering? I only asked because vitamin a eyedrops can be toxic and deadly just as injections if the dosage is not measured adequately .....I would wonder if it would not be better to offer vitamin a via consumption as a safer alternative? Pumpkin, dandelions..and the like foods high in vitamin a? Again, it is only a concern that popped in mind...I mean I can appreciate the sense of urgency when seeing eyes in that condition coupled with emergence from brumation...and being that it is both eyes I would also initially suspect vitamin a deficiency, however, there is no way to know this for certain and administering too much vitamin a just kinda worries me...how is his behavior with breathing also is he clear on the nose? Is he relatively thin or is he near what he was when he went in? If he has this situation and you say that the other tort has a slight symptom similar then perhaps he went in a little deficient you know?

Nonetheless, I am so happy he is trucking along :D

It's a ZooMed brand bottle of vitamin A and beta-carotene (which breaks down into vitamin A in the body). Vitamin A is fat-soluble, so yes, we do have to be careful about toxicity. However, beta-carotene is water-soluble, so anything the body doesn't convert to vitamin A itself will be excreted harmlessly in the urine.

The bottle is clear, which surprises me since medicines and supplements are supposed to be in opaque containers to protect them from light. Anyway, the instructions are to give 2 drops per eye once a day. In the past, I treated this condition in one of my box turtles using vitamin A drops from a different brand (Tetra, I believe, which did use an opaque bottle), and their instructions likewise said to give 2 drops per eye once a day. The other brand also recommended sprinkling some of the solution onto the turtle's food, so I did that this time as well. Topical absorption is slight, so it is probably hard to overdose vitamin A with eye drops, although you do have to be careful about how much you put onto their food, since absorption in the gut is much greater. Nevertheless, considering that the male does appear to have hypovitaminosis A, and the female probably does, too, although to a much lesser degree, I am not taking any chances. So, in addition to daily warm carrot baths, I am giving both tortoises the solution, both directly on the eyes, and in the food to make sure they get enough beta-carotene and vitamin A.

Anyway, here's a nice update for you:

I am pleased to say that the male's eyes are doing much better. They are no longer swollen shut, and they are now open and clear. I think he still might have a little dryness, because sometimes his blinking is a little slow. But otherwise, the eyes are looking much better. The female, who appeared healthy, but had a small amount of discharge from her right eye, now appears to be completely normal. Both tortoises are alert, active, and feeding well again, so that's good news. :)

However, you guessed it: last night the male did develop a slight runny nose. I noticed that he started blowing small bubbles every once in a while in the evening, and I am still seeing that this morning. Also, I now see a small amount of clear discharge just below his nostrils. I know a runny nose can be due to a variety of things, from something as simple as dust or debris in the enclosure, to something as serious as viral or bacterial infection after being chilled. Considering his situation (treatment for hypovitaminosis A after a failed brumation), I am worried that he might have an upper respiratory tract infection (URTI). Please, what do you recommend I do?

Thank you,
Gaddy
 

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last night the male did develop a slight runny nose. I noticed that he started blowing small bubbles every once in a while in the evening, and I am still seeing that this morning. Also, I now see a small amount of clear discharge just below his nostrils.

Gaddy, this was my concern more than the possible vitamin a deficiency, also was why I asked the information below;

how is his behavior with breathing also is he clear on the nose? Is he relatively thin or is he near what he was when he went in?

It would make more sense to me that his eyes were swollen shut solid due to the onset of a RI than them being swollen shut due to a vitamin a deficiency....I would have suspected a small amount of clear runny eye with the squinty appearance for a vitamin a deficiency alone...especially since I bet your diet for them is good....you know?

I would isolate this guy and bump his temps to no less than 80 as well as providing him a basking spot just a little higher (not too high as he will not have a cool spot to retreat to) I would also continue to do the baby food soaks followed by a clean warm water soak and dry him off before you put him back into his temp enclosure---I would do this for a week at least and see how he seems to be coming along with the runny nose---at present you have not reported any chunky monkey stuff coming out of his nose but rather clear....so you may be able to give him the immune boost he needs by continuing the soaks and offering foods high in vitamin a and some vitamin c along with his regular diet and keep the temps up.....this is what I would do if faced with this.

I also don't know that I would consider this a failed brumation, but rather this little guy may have had some underlying issue that was escalated by the brumation, you know what I mean?

You and he should do just fine :D:D:D

Also, was the other tortoise in the same shared container with this guy? If so I would offer her the same treatment to assure her slight eye issue is not actually a faint sign of RI as well.....eyes are a tricky thing...I do not like to use drops for vitamin a right off the bat, as this will sometimes mask what may really be going on....please don't get me wrong, I too would be freaked out at first faced with this puff eyes coming out of brumation....time is of the essence I agree.. Now, I am not trying to tell you what to do, PROMISE I am not, I am simly sharing with you what I would do in your position...so wait round and see what the others offer up as well....:D
 

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Thanks, Angela. I wonder if it's both avitaminosis A and URTI at the same time. :(

Okay, thanks for explaining more about what to do with the enclosure, and with the soaks and after. I will do that for both the male and the female. Also, what exactly does the baby food provide? Is it beta-carotene, and if so, how does it work if the tortoise bathes in it, but does not drink or ingest it? I have been giving them warm baby food soaks, but I haven't been rinsing them off or drying them afterward, because I thought that might negate the effects of the soak. Might I be doing more harm than good by doing that? I will change my practice to include a clean water soak and drying step now.

I am glad to hear that a home-remedy approach might be enough to reverse this without antibiotic shots, etc. Last time I had a turtle get a runny nose (a boxie), she had to get a cocktail of Baytril and vitamins injected into her (which did cure her, BTW). If necessary, I would of course let a vet administer that treatment to this tortoise, too. But if this problem is something we can "nip in the bud" with the therapy you recommended, and return to normal at home, that would be great.
 
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