Supplement Question

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Have any of you ever heard of supplementing diet with flax oil or red palm oil? This is for a two year old Hermanns tort who is not gaining weight despite eating. Thank you. Bobbi
 

Yvonne G

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When I have one that seems thin I feed him Mazuri. I have no scientific knowledge, but I feel the oils would be too much 'oil.' You also might try to de-worm him. We use Panacur, but you'll need to take him to the vet to have him weighed and get the proper dosage from the vet.
 
Joined
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Location (City and/or State)
Newark, DE
When I have one that seems thin I feed him Mazuri. I have no scientific knowledge, but I feel the oils would be too much 'oil.' You also might try to de-worm him. We use Panacur, but you'll need to take him to the vet to have him weighed and get the proper dosage from the vet.
Thank you. Unfortunately he is not that thrilled with the mazuri. He'll take a bite or two, but that's it. he's been to the vet a couple times, but we can certainly have his stool tested - although I've never seen any worms and his stool is solid and well-formed. The vet recommended the oils and it just doesn't sound right to me. I'm thinking maybe we need to find a different vet.... Thank you again.
 

Tom

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What do you typically feed your tortoise? How often do you soak him?
 
Joined
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What do you typically feed your tortoise? How often do you soak him?
He gets soaked every other day at least, sometimes every day. He is offered Mazuri although he rarely touches it. He eats a variety of greens including dandelion, plantain, clover, the weeds from the testudo seed mix I got from Tortoise Supply, bok choy, escarole, endive, hibiscus, occasionally aloe (although he's not a fan). He's not gaining weight despite eating and having regular solid bowel movements. He is pretty active - he tramps around his habitat, basks, hides, eats, tramps around again, etc. We took him to the vet after we got our other tort because we thought his eyes looked 'off". They weren't swollen or irritated - just different. Anyway, the vet said he was blind (he's not) and gave us drops which have improved his eyes dramatically. But he is still very small and isn't gaining weight. Our other Hermanns is 5 months old and weighs more than Frank who is two (they have their own enclosures). the vet said she thought he had a neurological problem the first time we were there, the second time she said she thought his kidneys are failing. She recommended the oils I listed above and I've never seen them recommended for tortoises anywhere. He doesn't act sick - he's just not growing which is odd given that he does eat. Maybe we need a new vet :)
 

Tom

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He gets soaked every other day at least, sometimes every day. He is offered Mazuri although he rarely touches it. He eats a variety of greens including dandelion, plantain, clover, the weeds from the testudo seed mix I got from Tortoise Supply, bok choy, escarole, endive, hibiscus, occasionally aloe (although he's not a fan). He's not gaining weight despite eating and having regular solid bowel movements. He is pretty active - he tramps around his habitat, basks, hides, eats, tramps around again, etc. We took him to the vet after we got our other tort because we thought his eyes looked 'off". They weren't swollen or irritated - just different. Anyway, the vet said he was blind (he's not) and gave us drops which have improved his eyes dramatically. But he is still very small and isn't gaining weight. Our other Hermanns is 5 months old and weighs more than Frank who is two (they have their own enclosures). the vet said she thought he had a neurological problem the first time we were there, the second time she said she thought his kidneys are failing. She recommended the oils I listed above and I've never seen them recommended for tortoises anywhere. He doesn't act sick - he's just not growing which is odd given that he does eat. Maybe we need a new vet :)

How old is this tortoise? What does it weigh? Where did you get it and how was it started? Dry routine and outside every day, or damp substrate and daily soaks inside?
 
Joined
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How old is this tortoise? What does it weigh? Where did you get it and how was it started? Dry routine and outside every day, or damp substrate and daily soaks inside?
He (or she - others on here have seen pics and said he is actually she :)) is 2 years 4 months old and we've had him since he was 4 months. I do not how he was started at the breeder - he was captive bred. We have kept him inside with daily soaks until he was about 2 then we went to every other day. We've kept his habitat moist and he has a hot humid hide. we've stuck to the care sheet on here as far as temps/humidity/etc. He has a cool side which is in the 70s and the temps go up to the mid 80s except under his basking lamp which go to the upper 90s directly under. He's had mazuri since day 1 although he's never really eaten it, as well as the diet above. He weighs (by my scale) 52 grams and he's about 2 1/4 inches. He is smaller and lighter than our other tort which is just 5 months and already significantly bigger than Frank is. She was about his size when we got her but she's grown A LOT and he doesn't seem to grow at all. They have the same care, the same exact set up with the same lights, temp, food offered, etc. I just don't understand it. We found a vet on here and he's been there. In my opinion it seems like they're guessing - he's blind, no he has a neurological problem, no he has kidney failure. I feel like we've done absolutely everything according to the care sheets, and it works as our other Tort is thriving. I guess at this point we just be happy he's happy and enjoying himself and don't worry about growing. Thanks for trying to help us. My daughter and I are trying everything. I saw someone on here mentioned soaking in bird vitamins so I went out and bought some and my daughter is going to add that to his soak today. Thank you again.
 

Tom

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He (or she - others on here have seen pics and said he is actually she :)) is 2 years 4 months old and we've had him since he was 4 months. I do not how he was started at the breeder - he was captive bred. We have kept him inside with daily soaks until he was about 2 then we went to every other day. We've kept his habitat moist and he has a hot humid hide. we've stuck to the care sheet on here as far as temps/humidity/etc. He has a cool side which is in the 70s and the temps go up to the mid 80s except under his basking lamp which go to the upper 90s directly under. He's had mazuri since day 1 although he's never really eaten it, as well as the diet above. He weighs (by my scale) 52 grams and he's about 2 1/4 inches. He is smaller and lighter than our other tort which is just 5 months and already significantly bigger than Frank is. She was about his size when we got her but she's grown A LOT and he doesn't seem to grow at all. They have the same care, the same exact set up with the same lights, temp, food offered, etc. I just don't understand it. We found a vet on here and he's been there. In my opinion it seems like they're guessing - he's blind, no he has a neurological problem, no he has kidney failure. I feel like we've done absolutely everything according to the care sheets, and it works as our other Tort is thriving. I guess at this point we just be happy he's happy and enjoying himself and don't worry about growing. Thanks for trying to help us. My daughter and I are trying everything. I saw someone on here mentioned soaking in bird vitamins so I went out and bought some and my daughter is going to add that to his soak today. Thank you again.

Here is my best guess based on many years of raising hatchlings of many species:
Most breeders of most species tend to keep babies too dry and put them in conditions that dehydrate them. Hot bulbs, dry substrate and infrequent soaks. In a dry climate in a dry room with hot temps, this can dehydrate a tiny hatchling in one day. Or some breeders put babies outside all day in hot dry climates, mistakenly thinking that being outside all day is better for them than being indoors. This dehydration damages their kidneys. If too many kidney cells die, the baby dies. If enough kidney cells survive, the baby can survive for a while, sometimes weeks or months, and then die. These babies can seem fine. Active, eating, basking, drinking, etc…, but they don't grow. Then, seemingly out of the blue, they begin to decline rapidly and die within a week or two. Most people call this hatchling failure syndrome. I call it BREEDER failure syndrome. There is a third category: Some babies have enough functioning kidney cells to survive, but not enough to thrive and grow. They seem normal in every way, but they never seem to grow. I've have individuals from several species that fit this category. In time, after a couple of years, most of these pull through ad can begin to grow and have a normal life, despite their slow start. My sulcata, Daisy, was one of these. She hardly grew at all for almost two years. Now she is a "normal" sized 60 pound, 9 year old female that lays huge clutches of large fertile eggs that hatch into large healthy babies. Here is more on what I'm describing:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

It sounds to me like you have done everything perfectly, but understand that if my guess is correct, the damage was done before the tortoise was in your hands. It doesn't matter how perfectly you maintain the baby if the kidneys were damaged prior to you getting the baby. At this point you can try to add more protein to the diet in the form of legumes like alfalfa, clover, beans or peas, but definitely do daily soaks if you go this route. If you can introduce more Mazuri more often, that should help too. Make sure you have the regular Mazuri. Not the new grass hay based "LS" version. Most tortoises don't like the LS version much, where most of them like the regular version a lot. If your tortoise doesn't like the regular Mazuri, try introducing it slowly in small amounts and see if you can get him to eat more. It is good stuff, and nutritionally balanced.

Regardless of what the issue is, I don't know of any other course of action to take, other than what you are doing, which is providing optimal conditions and hoping for the best.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Location (City and/or State)
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Here is my best guess based on many years of raising hatchlings of many species:
Most breeders of most species tend to keep babies too dry and put them in conditions that dehydrate them. Hot bulbs, dry substrate and infrequent soaks. In a dry climate in a dry room with hot temps, this can dehydrate a tiny hatchling in one day. Or some breeders put babies outside all day in hot dry climates, mistakenly thinking that being outside all day is better for them than being indoors. This dehydration damages their kidneys. If too many kidney cells die, the baby dies. If enough kidney cells survive, the baby can survive for a while, sometimes weeks or months, and then die. These babies can seem fine. Active, eating, basking, drinking, etc…, but they don't grow. Then, seemingly out of the blue, they begin to decline rapidly and die within a week or two. Most people call this hatchling failure syndrome. I call it BREEDER failure syndrome. There is a third category: Some babies have enough functioning kidney cells to survive, but not enough to thrive and grow. They seem normal in every way, but they never seem to grow. I've have individuals from several species that fit this category. In time, after a couple of years, most of these pull through ad can begin to grow and have a normal life, despite their slow start. My sulcata, Daisy, was one of these. She hardly grew at all for almost two years. Now she is a "normal" sized 60 pound, 9 year old female that lays huge clutches of large fertile eggs that hatch into large healthy babies. Here is more on what I'm describing:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

It sounds to me like you have done everything perfectly, but understand that if my guess is correct, the damage was done before the tortoise was in your hands. It doesn't matter how perfectly you maintain the baby if the kidneys were damaged prior to you getting the baby. At this point you can try to add more protein to the diet in the form of legumes like alfalfa, clover, beans or peas, but definitely do daily soaks if you go this route. If you can introduce more Mazuri more often, that should help too. Make sure you have the regular Mazuri. Not the new grass hay based "LS" version. Most tortoises don't like the LS version much, where most of them like the regular version a lot. If your tortoise doesn't like the regular Mazuri, try introducing it slowly in small amounts and see if you can get him to eat more. It is good stuff, and nutritionally balanced.

Regardless of what the issue is, I don't know of any other course of action to take, other than what you are doing, which is providing optimal conditions and hoping for the best.
Thank you for this advice. Our new tortoise, Ellie, came from a breeder recommended here and she is a little tank - so I can see that maybe Frank got off to a bad start as he's never been as active or eaten as well as she does. We will go back to soaking every day instead of every other day and also keep trying the Mazuri (it is the original) although he really doesn't eat it. I hope that if it is damaged kidneys, we're able to turn him around as you were for Daisy. Thank you again for the advice and suggestions.
 
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