Starting to get serious concern for cherry head hatchling weight loss.

xirxes

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I am tracking each week, and although almost all of the hatchlings have shed their egg teeth, I'm seeing either flatlined or retreating weight on the smallest each week. The rest are gaining quite well.

Here is chart:

Cherry heads:
Duplex-
5/31 31g
6/4 34g
6/10 37g
6/18 41g
6/24 44g
7/1 44g
7/8 47g
7/15 46g
7/22 46g
7/30 44g
Pythagoras-
5/31 27g
6/4 30g
6/10 31g
6/18 34g
6/24 34g
7/1 34g
7/8 35g
7/15 35g
7/22 39g
7/30 41g
Bob-
5/31 29g
6/4 31g
6/10 32g
6/18 33g
6/24 33g
7/1 32g
7/8 33g
7/15 32g
7/22 31g
7/30 30g
Tres-
5/31 33g
6/4 36g
6/10 39g
6/18 41g
6/24 44g
7/1 46g
7/8 49g
7/15 48g
7/22 52g
7/30 56g
Maturin-
5/31 32g
6/4 35g
6/10 37g
6/18 43g
6/24 43g
7/1 44g
7/8 45g
7/15 45g
7/22 47g
7/30 46g

Each week I feed mazuri original 2x, hard boiled egg broken up 1x, grape leaves shredded 3x, strawberries 1x, carrots cut thin 1x, cactus 2x and mushrooms 1x. Every morning I set out food on a 12x6" brick ground flat level, set up all the hatchlings and wake them up with a water spritz. They almost always all eat a few bites at least.

I saw the small one (Bob) eat mushroom and mazuri tonight even!

System is locked in 79 min-86max over 24 hours, humidity 70-99%, I see them drinking and even sometimes in water bowl.

Should I start resorting to more drastic measures/baby food, or am I just looking too much at the fine detail?
 
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Anyfoot

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Does bob seem as active and is he eating like the others.
 

xirxes

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Bob is physically as active, he eats whenever I see the others eat, but I leave food all day so I'm not sure all day, but I can put a soaked mazuri pellet in front of him while he's awake and he will eat the whole thing.

The torts get a sprits each morning and a 15 minute soak every night. I have missed less than 5 soaks in 9 weeks I've had them.
 

Anyfoot

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I've had one that seemed to halt in growth for a few months then it grew on, it's still a slow grower but healthy and smooth at 3 yrs old. Mine halted growth around the 60g mark though. I have another now that is growing extremely slow.
You may want to separate this one into a separate enclosure for a while to see if it starts to grow any faster.
 

xirxes

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In that one of my wife's hard line rules is no more animals in the house, I don't know if I can put together another humidity/heat proof enclosure for him specifically.

I will start by single feeding him for a month and see if there is a difference.

It is always so interesting to see the different recommendations! One will say isolate and feed singular to rule out crowding at food, another will say absolutely feed only in a group as feeding competition is what drives good feeding response!

Will keep posted.
 

Anyfoot

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In that one of my wife's hard line rules is no more animals in the house, I don't know if I can put together another humidity/heat proof enclosure for him specifically.

I will start by single feeding him for a month and see if there is a difference.

It is always so interesting to see the different recommendations! One will say isolate and feed singular to rule out crowding at food, another will say absolutely feed only in a group as feeding competition is what drives good feeding response!

Will keep posted.
I was actually a bit hesitant to say "separate". I know quite a few redfoot breeders that believe feed in groups is better and from what I'm seeing it's correct.
I never separated mine that grew slow and its fine, personally I would leave it be for another month. I didn't like to advise that just in case the dreaded happened.
I've also had one seemingly perfectly fine tort go belly up on me over night. S**t happens.

I also separated a baby hingeback that wasn't growing and it made no difference, he lives with the rest now and seems to be lively enough, just a slow grower.

All you can do is make sure it's getting its fare share of food and is hydrated well.
 

Baoh

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You might want to have a fecal sample analyzed. Take a composite sample from them all (obtain it as it is passed during a soak) and combine it. Use a sandwich bag for containment of the sample. None are growing well, really, and the "better" ones are simply growing less poorly. Some (cool) vets will analyze a sample and charge you the basic fee for that work without mandating a general exam and the extra fees that accompany that likely-useless-in-this-case exercise. Other vets will mandate a general exam. Some will take shots in the dark and try to push vitamin shots or antibiotics without detection of cause for application (and that is risky if so), while others will not apply such medications without reasonable warrant or justification. You can keep the sample in a fridge for a day if needed, but fresher is better. Do not freeze it.

I have found a way to work around some vets that want to charge for a general exam regardless of need. Say a wild box turtle was dropped into your enclosure by a well-meaning but uninformed family member. You removed it and do not have it anymore, but you are concerned it could have introduced parasites into your enclosure. It left a fecal sample. You ask them to check it for worms and protozoans. This *can* work if you would have otherwise received resistance at the office. An alternative story is that a young cousin visited and stuck his Russian tortoise from a chain store in there and then took it home after you expressed your displeasure. Whatever gets the job done. I prefer the honest approach and simply do not use vets who do not work with me, but this type of suggestion I just gave has been useful once in a while for people who do not have my options.
 

xirxes

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Thanks for thoughts. What is treatment for worms and/or protozoa?
 

xirxes

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Local vet says no fecal or Meda without inspection. That means in order to get results from a combo sample from 5, will take at least a single physical and a fecal, $125

Then based on results a further physical on each, then meds, additional $300.

Seem in line with what you've all found?
 

Bryan

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Local vet says no fecal or Meda without inspection. That means in order to get results from a combo sample from 5, will take at least a single physical and a fecal, $125

Then based on results a further physical on each, then meds, additional $300.

Seem in line with what you've all found?

Are you convinced that they are ill? Have you ever seen visible parasites in their stools? How confident are you in this vets abilities to both be honest and to properly treat torts? Do you have access to other vets locally?
 

xirxes

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Are you convinced that they are ill? Have you ever seen visible parasites in their stools? How confident are you in this vets abilities to both be honest and to properly treat torts? Do you have access to other vets locally?

I am not convinced they are ill no, they all are active, eat every time food is offered, are clear eyed and eliminate routinely every evening soak.

I am concerned for growth rates, but as these are true eastern Brazilians, they may simply be slow growers.

I have inspected a number of stool samples and seen nothing odd.

The vet is widely respected and known for accommodation within reason.

All this said I have always been less reactionary and more for the wait and watch method, but they are so young and I do not relish the idea of losing the smallest due to not taking a precaution I could have.
 

Bryan

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Have you considered giving them panacur individually just to try and knock down any potential worms in their guts? I'd also consider dropping that humidity down a tad on the higher end. Don't want them getting respiratory infections due to the air being too moist.
 

xirxes

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Have considered, but many recommend against this method.

I would appreciate if you have a USA source and dosing chart via PM

As to the high end humidity, it would be very difficult as this system is closed in PM, but they only get this high for 8-10 hours a day, as I am quite sure Brazil does each and every evening.

. Thanks.
 

xirxes

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Turns out I need less than 1ml of the 2.5% panacur liquid. Please PM if anyone has a source Stateside thanks.
 

Bryan

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I found it at some point via an internet search. You could likely find something about it here on TF I'd think. IIRC the paste is for horses so it maybe tougher to measure for such light animals.
 
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xirxes

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I found it at some point via an internet search. You could likely find something about it here on TF I'd think. IIRC the paste is for horses so it maybe tougher to measure for such light animals.

Yes, the only things I can find are 10% pastes for horses and 22% granules for dogs, either of which is a nightmare when I need only .1 ml of the 2.5% oral suspension.... would need .01ml of even the 10% and that's too tight to work with safely.
 

Baoh

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Local vet says no fecal or Meda without inspection. That means in order to get results from a combo sample from 5, will take at least a single physical and a fecal, $125

Then based on results a further physical on each, then meds, additional $300.

Seem in line with what you've all found?

That local vet is going to eat very well at your expense with those numbers. My vet charges $19 for the fecal analysis (when I decide I want a professional backup for my own performance of the test) and three separate exams combined for me would be $144. Health certificates are usually $50, but can be $75 or $100 if different paperwork is used. And so on and so forth. If I needed to do an exam with health cert for a special shipment, it would be around $200ish. Still $19 for the fecal. Keep in mind this is a vet I have a normal relationship with. It is far detached relative to some of the more tortoise/exotics-centric vets I utilize or have utilized with whom I have become more friendly over the years. My advice is to shop around. You might run into similar options elsewhere and you might find way better ones. Maybe talk to a rescue or herpetological society and see if they have any vets who are members and involved with them. You might find some more wallet-friendly pricing. That said, skilled work should not be expected to be free, either.

I am not convinced they are ill no, they all are active, eat every time food is offered, are clear eyed and eliminate routinely every evening soak.

I am concerned for growth rates, but as these are true eastern Brazilians, they may simply be slow growers.

I have inspected a number of stool samples and seen nothing odd.

The vet is widely respected and known for accommodation within reason.

All this said I have always been less reactionary and more for the wait and watch method, but they are so young and I do not relish the idea of losing the smallest due to not taking a precaution I could have.

I do not find true Eastern Brazilians to be particularly slow growers. Even on the occasions when I do not push them to be fast growers.

The only organismal thing you can see with a visual inspection of stool samples is the presence of mature helminths if shed at that time. Your unmagnified vision alone will not show you smaller helminth larvae, helminth encapsulated embryos/ova, mature/active protozoans, or protozoan oocysts. I am not saying your animals have these, but if extremely slow growth is the problem (and it is), then that is one of the first things to rule out in a logical route after feeding response/consumption and diet (quality and quantity) have been evaluated.

I find provision of dosages to be a tricky thing when talking to people who have not done it before. I know a lot of chelonian keepers who calculate dosages incorrectly. Often by a factor of 10 and sometimes by a factor of 100. There are some medications in this antiparasitic context which can cause serious harm if exceeding a factor of six. People tend to make mistakes with mass unit conversions in the first place. Then they tend to make mistakes with concentration (unit mass per unit volume) calculations and the applicable volumes for liquids and pastes. There are other things they do not take into account as well (like resuspension prior to a volume draw, where to read the plunger's location on a syringe, or the specification and error limits of the measuring devices they use). That is one reason why most people go to vets. I know guys with hundreds and hundreds of animals that cannot calculate this stuff super well, so they still seek advice from professionals. There is no shame in that. If you do not know what you are doing, you probably should not wing this. If you treat for worms and the problem is a protozoan, then what? If things still go poorly, what will you have determined? If you misjudge the dosage calculation for treating common protozoan parasites and cause neurological damage, then what? It is generally tougher to overdose antihelminth medications in a single dose (although it can happen), but easier with multiple doses (and the negative effects are sort of slow). It is generally easier to overdose common "-cide" antiprotozoan medications in a single dose (and the negative effects are sort of fast). If you really know what you are doing, you can apply these medications harmlessly regardless of testing. If you do not know what you are doing, the opposite. All the same, you will not know what is what regarding parasites unless someone with skill takes a magnified look.

Determine if treatment is needed first. Treat second.
 
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