South African Leopard Tortoises - wet or dry???

Fl@sh

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A couple of thoughts @Fl@sh

I have literally raised a few hundred tortoises they way you describe. All the Temps and diet correct, yet humidity was never a concern. ALL pyramided. ONLY when changing the humidity did I see smooth, more active, babies. I never thought the health or activity level of all those babies was not optimal before. But I was very surprised about the difference when I changed the humidity for them. Over the years I also always noted that once I moved them to outside enclosures, the growth smoothed out. Where I live, the "humidity" (meteorological humidity) is normally in the 10-20% range throughout the summer. But they grew smooth outside, and as you note, they are much more active. Now I know why, exactly. The live in micro climates. If I stick a data sensor next to where they will push under a bush to spend much of their time outside, the humidity is 70-90%, yet the humidity at 2 meters above ground level (where all official meteorological data is collected) is 18%. Tortoises are extremely good at seeking out areas of higher humidity which also provide great cover and hiding from predators. Experts for years, and many still do, think tortoises are simply hiding from danger and predators. I now think that is only half of the story. I think they are looking for optimal conditions that they can find in an area a meteorologist will tell you is too dry! Ever watch a female tortoise looking for a place to lay eggs? Constantly pressing her nose to the ground? Testing temperature and humidity? They are amazing creatures we still do not fully understand.

In your response to Yvonne, you stated her statement was ignorance that was dangerous. I will not say that about your statements, as I think ignorance is the wrong word, but I will say that misapplied information can indeed be detrimental to understanding optimal husbandry. As someone who has strived to understand what works and what does not for over 50 years now of keeping tortoises, attending symposiums, visiting breeders, and seeking out and talking to the best experts I could find, I constantly heard and even repeated many of these myths myself - mostly all draw from incorrect conclusions about what we saw in the areas they tortoises occur naturally. You cannot look at climate data alone. You must study micro climates. And we must keep in mind that tortoises are extremely hardy. If left to range naturally, they will range into territories that they are able to do well in, yet are not optimal. Climate variations and a drought or unusual wet season are things these amazing creatures have found ways to overcome and survive through. But that does not mean we can look at those conditions and conclude since they are there that year, or in that part of their range, they are in the optimal state. We will see pyramided tortoises in drought years. We will see pyramided tortoises in parts of their range where they are not in optimal range, but suitable range. We see pyramided tortoises in their native areas where ample food is given by artificial means (local pens or assurance colonies), yet the climate has dried the area where that time of year the tortoise would normally be aestivating.

We are making huge strides in understanding optimal conditions for tortoises. And I see so much of myself 20 years ago in what you are saying - the same arguments and comments I even made in lectures back then.
Ah those new facts are refreshing indeed. The seeking higher humidity under growth is all good and well and is an excellent point. However i see these creatures often in natural habitats, they are in dry climates but never too far from a water hole. Thus a dry climate with provided water is best . I tend to mist my tort enclosure 3 times a day when he is in his indoor one but never to extent of high humidity. Can i also state that my tort does indeed have a smooth shell and so do the ones in the wild which are from dry regions
 

Fl@sh

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80 percent humidity is not a must arpund 20-30 percent is perfect
 

Fl@sh

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Here are some leos brought up the normal way , to quote the owner "I dont believe the moist substrate has anything to do with pyramiding. My biggest tortoises are over 50 years old and show no signs of pyramiding and they are not kept moist at all. I have also heard of the SA pardalis being called "blonds" in the US. I think this is because they are known to hibernate where the babcocki do not hibernate well. In actual fact the colours do not indicate anything as pardalis have almost the same colours.

Keeping them in a northern climate would be difficult but sunlight would be the best solution. In winter I know this will not be possible. Whatever you do do not give them damp surroundings to hibernate in. That will kill them. They do not occur in "tropical rain forests" but prefer dry savannah bushy regions."
 

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Fl@sh

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Anyone here have leos over 50 year ? :) BTW those leos are like 60 years now :). Expertise ? there it is
 

Fl@sh

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Here are some leos brought up the normal way , to quote the owner "I dont believe the moist substrate has anything to do with pyramiding. My biggest tortoises are over 50 years old and show no signs of pyramiding and they are not kept moist at all. I have also heard of the SA pardalis being called "blonds" in the US. I think this is because they are known to hibernate where the babcocki do not hibernate well. In actual fact the colours do not indicate anything as pardalis have almost the same colours.

Keeping them in a northern climate would be difficult but sunlight would be the best solution. In winter I know this will not be possible. Whatever you do do not give them damp surroundings to hibernate in. That will kill them. They do not occur in "tropical rain forests" but prefer dry savannah bushy regions."
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Fl@sh

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Anyone here witha 50 year old leo ? There is your expertise :) . Relax people i am not judging your need for a smooth tort shell. However i wont put mine through it
 

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Truth? Here is the truth:

1. Speculation about our interpretation about what wild conditions are or aren't, is what has gotten us into this mess in the first place. This mess being the hundreds of baby tortoises that die or become disfigured every year because people read this sort of thing and incorrectly determine that tortoises are desert animals and should be kept in low humidity and dry conditions.

2. What works in an animal's native habitat, usually does not work here in North America, at least in regards to raising baby African tortoises.

3. Fl@sh, if you are in Africa and you are doing it in a way that works, and that other guy is doing it in a way that works, that is freakin' awesome. Very happy for you both. Wish I could do it that way here, but I can't and neither can anyone else who has tried. I'm not going to waste my time looking up photos of ghastly horribly disfigured tortoises that were raised here in North America in the way you are advocating, but an internet search will show anyone who cares to look plenty of them.

4. Even here in the South West USA, which is the native habitat of our desert tortoises, people keeping them in captivity mange to kill most of the babies because they keep them too dry and don't hydrate them. They also expose them to above ground temperature extremes which kills a fair number, and many of them pyramid. And with this species we are discussing a TRUE desert species by any definition. This true desert species benefits tremendously and thrives when we provide them with daily soaks, humid hides, damp substrate and much higher humidity than what they would encounter in the wild, as far as we know.

5. I lived in the RSA for a few months and have been there a couple of times. I realize that the condition I advocate, are not the conditions that they would encounter on the Cape. Here is why: Attempting to simulate Cape conditions, or following climate data, or following book advice from people who are deducing their info from either or both of the above leads to death or disfigurement. Decades of trial and ERROR, and a track record of my own failures and the failures of those around me have aptly demonstrated that what you are advocating people do here DOES NOT WORK. Do you know what does work for people with captive African tortoises in the USA? I do. How do I know? Because I live it every day.

6. When you can come to the USA and raise a smooth healthy leopard tortoise that looks like the ones in the pictures with 20-30% humidity, then we can have a conversation. Until then, I can tell you with absolute certainty that you are wrong, because I personally did it that way for years and got the same failed result every single time. Conversely, when anyone raises them the way I advocate anywhere in the world, the tortoises thrive, grow and remain smooth. There are millions of factors that neither you, nor I, nor anyone understands about how these tortoises interact with wild conditions on a daily basis over a lifetime of years or decades, but to ignore direct observation of thousands of captive raised babies that are in our own hands is pure foolishness. Dry doesn't work here. Humid and warm does.
 

Markw84

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Anyone here have leos over 50 year ? :) BTW those leos are like 60 years now :). Expertise ? there it is
What I try to keep in mind is that this is a forum with people from around the world looking for advice that is duplicable in THEIR area of the world and climate. Most of the tortoise keepers we are talking with are trying to raise tortoises in areas quite different than their home range. How much expertise do you or this individual have in raising tortoises in a foreign environment? That is what most all coming here to seek advice are facing.

In my seminars on personal development, I used to always do a segment on Failure. We learn far more from our failures than we do from our successes. When we try something and it works, what does it tell us? If we combine all the factors used previously, it should work again. But what parts of that equation were necessary and what parts were not necessary? The expertise and lessons gained from trying different methods, isolating variables and seeing (in this case) what variable when missing always produces pyramiding. While other variables, when missing can still produce smooth growth.

For decades we were all told to raise tortoises dry. "20-30% humidity is perfect". And for decades, for 100's of leopard tortoises I've seen raised in most of the US, all I have seen are pyramided tortoises. By today's best standards - perfect diet. Perfect temperatures. Plenty of room. Slow growth. Fast growth. Low protein. Natural forage only. ALL pyramided. How many have you raised that way to gain the insight of what that does? And then repeating all those variables above again, but this time with humidity, all produced smooth tortoises. The comparison of those experiences produces true expertise.

That is the expertise that in my humble opinion, earns the right for someone to tell a person, somewhere in the world, "this is the way we have found produces the best results".
 

Fl@sh

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If people recreated the African climate then they would still have healthy torts. Thats my point. I have lived in South Africa for a couple of year lol nevermind months. If someone in the USA kept their indoor enclosure at 28 -30 C with proper uv and humidity 20 to 30 percent and the odd sun soaks will result in a happy tortoise. Inbreeding and Outdoor northern hemisphere conditions as well as no water provided and poor diet is what disfigured those torts. Remember create the African climate in your tank and you'll see. Start your babies of exactly like Toms care. It works 100 percent. It prevents Darwinism. Daily soaks for a baby tort is a must. Then twice a week once older
 
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Fl@sh

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I observe and report. I believe I have done so and stated before.
 

Fl@sh

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Did you know that leopards here face snow conditions in winter and in fact hibernate? Just saying. Don't stress too hard sunlight is the most important factor
 

Fl@sh

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Keep to Toms method. I'm not saying it's bad I'm just saying 80 percent humidity. Wowed I always cringe when I read that haha and I read that everywhere. Ever been to or heard of Kamp Kenan? He is based on the US. YouTube his leopard tortoise guide his baby tort guide not adult
 

Tom

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If people recreated the African climate then they would still have healthy torts.

This is impossible. First, which part of the African climate and which time of year? You know that the weather in Kraafontein is totally different than the cold clammy weather in Hout Bay just a few short kilometers away. I saw wild leopards in both locations. Heck, the weather on top of Table Mountain is different than the weather in the foothills below. Even the vegetation is different. Which part of these macro climates are we supposed to attempt to replicate in our little back yards and tiny indoor enclosures? Of the millions of micro climates that exist in these giant macro climates, which one(s) do our tortoises need?

I see the temperatures and conditions you advocate, but I'm telling you that it doesn't work here. There are many reasons why. Here is one single reason amongst millions: Almost every house in North America has central heating and air conditioning. Both of these create extremely desiccating conditions, even in areas of our country that are humid outside. While I was in the beautiful RSA, not even the rich people had central heating or air. I visited about 20 homes while I was there and not a single one had heat or A/C. I even asked about it and several SA friends told me, "They just don't usually do that here." In my Inn, I had to go buy my own space heater to keep from freezing my patooty off as Fall set in in April.

Another factor is that you guys are more humid in general there than we are in some parts of this country. I worked in Sommerset West, Tokai Forrest, Milnerton, Kraafontein, Hout Bay, and up the coast to George and the Wilderness Area, plus several other areas. It was universally more humid than it is here, and air and weather just "felt" better. I liked it so much that I was ready to sell everything here and go live there. One of my SA co-workers told me that the leopard tortoises in the mountainous area where he lived hibernated under the snow.

In short, we can't replicate the amazing conditions you have there, we don't know which portion of the African conditions to replicate, and people trying to replicate wild conditions usually leads to dismal failure. Instead, after decades of experimentation, trial and error, and lots of successes and failures, I have come up with a system that works for anybody, anywhere in the world and always produces the same excellent results.

Here is one of mine from a few years ago:
14dn85z.jpg
 

Tom

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I didn't mean to offend anyone on here.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not offended. I welcome to opportunity to make my case and explain to more people why I make the assertions that I make. My goal is to improve the health and captive care of tortoise around the world, and you have provided me with a good opportunity to do so and explain why.
 

Fl@sh

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Your outlook is beautiful like your tortoise Tom. You know what you are right. If it's not broken don't fix it. Its just as a tortoise owner I get paranoid about the temps and lights so I can't imagine someone that is going insane trying to keep their humidity and doing stupid things to keep humidity
 

Tom

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Did you know that leopards here face snow conditions in winter and in fact hibernate? Just saying. Don't stress too hard sunlight is the most important factor

Yes, I did know that, and no, sunlight is not the most important factor in any part of this discussion.

Is sunlight good for tortoises? Yes. Is it necessary for a smooth carapace or good health? No.
 

Fl@sh

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Yes, I did know that, and no, sunlight is not the most important factor in any part of this discussion.

Is sunlight good for tortoises? Yes. Is it necessary for a smooth carapace or good health? No.
It is necessary for a happy tort which is most important to us owners
 

Tom

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Keep to Toms method. I'm not saying it's bad I'm just saying 80 percent humidity. Wowed I always cringe when I read that haha and I read that everywhere. Ever been to or heard of Kamp Kenan? He is based on the US. YouTube his leopard tortoise guide his baby tort guide not adult

Kenan is a good guy with good intentions, but he is not an authority on tortoise care. He's repeating a lot of the old incorrect info, and while his methods might work for him in tropical Florida, they will not work anywhere else in the country under normal captive circumstances.

I would not advise anyone to follow his advice on baby tortoise care. There are gaps, omissions, and some info that I disagree with.
 

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