South African Leopard Tortoises - wet or dry???

[Yvonne G]

Ok, forget "monsoon." Are you saying that baby leopard tortoises DO NOT hatch out during the RAINY season?

 

[cmacusa3]

That right there is the kind of ignorance that's dangerous, there is no monsoon in South Africa. Please get those facts right . I am not saying raise them in dry conditions geez guys if you keep reading it you'll see what i am saying. If your humidity levels aren't correct or 80 percent it is not detrimental to health nor does it stunt growth . Humidity is obviously a way of getting their shells smooth but it is not mimicking the leopards natural environment Their natural environment has a 20 percent humidity and is around 28- 35 degrees. So if your indoor enclosure is set up like that and your humidity isn't so high..... Brace yourself , you're gonna have a happy tort . An indoor set up with correct uvb and temps around 28 - 35 with odd mists everyday is fine. Humidity does not have to be 80 percent . I hope i could explain my argument simply enough.

That's funny, you might want to go back and read some of your old threads about advice you were seeking just months ago and now your an expert........ I read you have your set up around 38C

 

[Fl@sh]

I am hoping this website or forum is about getting the facts straight. Ladies and gentlemen, those are the facts. Like it or not. If you shall fail to see it then so be it but leopard torts DO NOT need an 80 percent humidity if water is provided and temps diet and uvb is correct a light misting 3 times a day is all they need. I am an animal lover and never would i mislead the public to the detriment of an animal. These are my facts and its how ive raised my tort coupled with some tricks from Tom whom i have the utmost regard for. His humidity set up will give you a healthy tort but at the same time so will a dry climate with provided water and correcting lights and temps. Toms soaking of baby torts in captivity is a must and i fully stand by it as ive said like a hundred times haha. Its just the humidity does not have to be so high, i promise it doesn't

 

[Fl@sh]

i was seeking advice for temperatures due to how my tank was set up and its downfalls. Im not an expert i just observe and report to people who dont have the luxury of seeing it first hand.

 

[Fl@sh]

Ok, forget "monsoon." Are you saying that baby leopard tortoises DO NOT hatch out during the RAINY season?

they are born in spring correct 100 percent, the rainfall however does not last long about a week or two of broken rain and sun from their region which is highveld. Humidity returns to normal very quickly.

 

[cmacusa3]

I am hoping this website or forum is about getting the facts straight. Ladies and gentlemen, those are the facts. Like it or not. If you shall fail to see it then so be it but leopard torts DO NOT need an 80 percent humidity if water is provided and temps diet and uvb is correct a light misting 3 times a day is all they need. I am an animal lover and never would i mislead the public to the detriment of an animal. These are my facts and its how ive raised my tort coupled with some tricks from Tom whom i have the utmost regard for. His humidity set up will give you a healthy tort but at the same time so will a dry climate with provided water and correcting lights and temps. Toms soaking of baby torts in captivity is a must and i fully stand by it as ive said like a hundred times haha. Its just the humidity does not have to be so high, i promise it doesn't

So does Flash/Barry have some pyramiding?


@Tom

 

[Fl@sh]

my

That's funny, you might want to go back and read some of your old threads about advice you were seeking just months ago and now your an expert........ I read you have your set up around 38C

tank had those constant temperatures and i wanted to know if torts would be ok with it before finding out the sad way. I was worried that it was too high of a temp

 

[Fl@sh]

So does Flash/Barry have some pyramiding?


@Tom

He/she is my display pic. I just refer to him or her as a he for now

 

[Fl@sh]

His outdoor setup where he spends most of his time

 

[Fl@sh]

well its in the leopard tortoise group and its title is appropriate so i think its fine . Good for your members. Just so you know pp and pb both dont need high humidity. wherever they are in the world if the temperature is 28-35 and water is provided with correct uvb and misting 3 times a day they will thrive. You and the members for the sake of a smooth shell can keep your leos in an 80 percent humid enclosure, its just i will not do it . I was brought up in a dry climate haha when i hit the coast oh boy haha. Not that humans or leos are the same but we do have the power of higher thinking

 

[cmacusa3]

Gotta love the Millennials............................

 

[Fl@sh]

I can either report facts of the leopard tortoises and their natural habitat back to the public so people can mimic it or you can ignore me. These facts would be from primary source not one found online. i aim to make your leos smile . Not feel like their in solitary confinement hot box haha.

 

[Fl@sh]

Gotta love the Millennials............................

This sir is a very narrow minded comment

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

That right there is the kind of ignorance that's dangerous, there is no monsoon in South Africa.

You are incorrect. While it isn't as well known as the WAM that brings rain to the Sahel, the East African Monsoon brings Monsoon conditions to northeastern South Africa. http://www.clivar.org/african-monsoon

 

[Fl@sh]

Guys i live in Africa for goodness sakes i wash my hands of this. Take my advice or not. Be blinded by your own satisfaction for a smoth shell. My tortoise has a smooth shell and has been kept in natural conditions

 

[Fl@sh]

You are incorrect. While it isn't as well known as the WAM that brings rain to the Sahel, the East African Monsoon brings Monsoon conditions to northeastern South Africa. http://www.clivar.org/african-monsoon

these parts of africa are not where you find leos. Africa is huge and these babes don't stay near those climates although they may stay in those parts they stay in the parts least affected . Science is amazing. Thats the tropics deary . Trust me when i say it doesnt rain longer than two weeks in Africa and when it does rain for those two weeks its not humid a week after because Africa is thirsty and also the fact that it is not continuous rain like a monsoon its broken down with sunlight

 

[Fl@sh]

Here is the truth

 

[saginawhxc]

Dry conditions do not stunt growth only when there is no water to drink do they suffer. Also I read alot in this forum about temps 105 degree. You guys do know that it rarely reaches 35 degrees in the wild. Mostly around 30.

A small matter, but I didn't really see anybody else address this.

What is mostly advocated is a basking spot of 35-37c. That is not a total overall ambient temperature. It is simply a basking spot. In captivity we do the best we can do to provide conditions that allow an animal to not just simply survive but to actually thrive. So we provide temperature gradients that allow our tortoises to choose their temperature. While you make the assertion that the temps aren't common, I will make the argument that it's irrelevant to the discussion of captive tortoises kept indoors.

That being said, I think those temperatures are more common than you realize. The surface of things in the direct sunlight are often hotter than that of the ambient temps. What is usually advocated here is a precise basking spot that warms our tortoises to 35-37c. I have never seen any experienced keeper here make the argument that 35c should be the ambient temperature of an enclosure.

 

[Markw84]

A couple of thoughts @Fl@sh

I have literally raised a few hundred tortoises they way you describe. All the Temps and diet correct, yet humidity was never a concern. ALL pyramided. ONLY when changing the humidity did I see smooth, more active, babies. I never thought the health or activity level of all those babies was not optimal before. But I was very surprised about the difference when I changed the humidity for them. Over the years I also always noted that once I moved them to outside enclosures, the growth smoothed out. Where I live, the "humidity" (meteorological humidity) is normally in the 10-20% range throughout the summer. But they grew smooth outside, and as you note, they are much more active. Now I know why, exactly. The live in micro climates. If I stick a data sensor next to where they will push under a bush to spend much of their time outside, the humidity is 70-90%, yet the humidity at 2 meters above ground level (where all official meteorological data is collected) is 18%. Tortoises are extremely good at seeking out areas of higher humidity which also provide great cover and hiding from predators. Experts for years, and many still do, think tortoises are simply hiding from danger and predators. I now think that is only half of the story. I think they are looking for optimal conditions that they can find in an area a meteorologist will tell you is too dry! Ever watch a female tortoise looking for a place to lay eggs? Constantly pressing her nose to the ground? Testing temperature and humidity? They are amazing creatures we still do not fully understand.

In your response to Yvonne, you stated her statement was ignorance that was dangerous. I will not say that about your statements, as I think ignorance is the wrong word, but I will say that misapplied information can indeed be detrimental to understanding optimal husbandry. As someone who has strived to understand what works and what does not for over 50 years now of keeping tortoises, attending symposiums, visiting breeders, and seeking out and talking to the best experts I could find, I constantly heard and even repeated many of these myths myself - mostly all draw from incorrect conclusions about what we saw in the areas they tortoises occur naturally. You cannot look at climate data alone. You must study micro climates. And we must keep in mind that tortoises are extremely hardy. If left to range naturally, they will range into territories that they are able to do well in, yet are not optimal. Climate variations and a drought or unusual wet season are things these amazing creatures have found ways to overcome and survive through. But that does not mean we can look at those conditions and conclude since they are there that year, or in that part of their range, they are in the optimal state. We will see pyramided tortoises in drought years. We will see pyramided tortoises in parts of their range where they are not in optimal range, but suitable range. We see pyramided tortoises in their native areas where ample food is given by artificial means (local pens or assurance colonies), yet the climate has dried the area where that time of year the tortoise would normally be aestivating.

We are making huge strides in understanding optimal conditions for tortoises. And I see so much of myself 20 years ago in what you are saying - the same arguments and comments I even made in lectures back then.

 

[Fl@sh]

A small matter, but I didn't really see anybody else address this.

What is mostly advocated is a basking spot of 35-37c. That is not a total overall ambient temperature. It is simply a basking spot. In captivity we do the best we can do to provide conditions that allow an animal to not just simply survive but to actually thrive. So we provide temperature gradients that allow our tortoises to choose their temperature. While you make the assertion that the temps aren't common, I will make the argument that it's irrelevant to the discussion of captive tortoises kept indoors.

That being said, I think those temperatures are more common than you realize. The surface of things in the direct sunlight are often hotter than that of the ambient temps. What is usually advocated here is a precise basking spot that warms our tortoises to 35-37c. I have never seen any experienced keeper here make the argument that 35c should be the ambient temperature of an enclosure.

yes the basking spot of course . the basking spot could be 28-35 and that's perfect