Soil question

[Carson]

Hello I'm new here but have been stalking for months! I have 2 desert tortoises who are a little over a year old. I've been keeping them in a glass tank though I've read that's not ideal and just bought a dresser after realizing I'm not a builder and have no tools, to make a bigger space for them. SUBSTRATE?! I've read so much and am very confused. My mom raised a gaggle of tortoises all from the parents of these 2 and always just put them in tanks, heating pads but no lights and only newspaper. I've been usuing coconut husk on carpet squares. Some say that's bad, some good. I know these are desert tortoises and perhaps I'm reading about other species I'm just not sure. I bought bags of Garden Soil, the only kind that looked to have nothing added, from orchard supply. I read "top soil" is what I need, but they didn't have that. Is top soil different than garden soil? There are tiny white rocks and sticks in it and I know they will try to eat those or anything actually. They prefer my shoe to endive at times. Is it ok for them to eat this? It's not that crumbly bad white stuff, perlite? But tiny rocks.
Moisture- ?? Some say keep it moist, some say keep it dry. Some say mix with play sand, some say noooo play sand! How do I clean it? Scoop out poop? What about the pee? Does it start smelling? I have to figure out a way to clamp their lights overhead.
My gardener built an out door box with a lid as well but it's been sitting there for months because I don't know what to fill it with. They are cramped in their tank with their makeshift cars board hut and ramp I modeled after a table I saw online. Any help would be appreciated! Thank you !
Tanya

I would look up a desert tortoise care sheet on tortoise forum because they are very thorough. I would read over it a couple times, just so it is locked in your head.

 

[Carson]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/

Great looking torts but I wouldn't keep them together

You are definitely right about the substrate and changing around every year. I am just a clean freak and a germaphobe.

 

[Tanyabobanya]

I'm going to dig up some dirt in the mountains. I still can't figure out the top Soil issue. Why not house together? They've been together since they were born. My mom has their parents who are a million years old. If I order "top soil" on amazon is there a specific brand that is ok? I'll read the sheets again. What is bio char? I want to transfer them now but don't want to hurt them.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Hello, Tanya, and a very warm welcome to Tortoise Forum.
Tortoises do not do well in pairs, and i'm rather afraid that you will have to separate them, they are solitary territorial animals that don't need or require friends.http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/
As has been said, glass tanks are fine but usually too small for a tortoise, you need as large an enclosure as possible for each one, usually 4' by 8' is a recommended minimum size.
Many seem to use ordinary yard dirt for this species if it is completely chemical, pesticide herbicide free. Others use coco coir, orchid bark or cypress mulch. The soil with rocks or twig in could be dangerous as the rocks may be ingested causing compaction and the twigs could be from a type of wood harmful to tortoises. (It is NOT okay for them to eat your shoe)
The substrate should be moist but not wet. Do not use sand as it is an impaction risk.
Spot clean by removing any poops or urates (the white stuff in his pee) but the rest is almost entirely water and nothing to worry about.It shouldn't start to smell.
i do not keep this species but the information above is general and should still apply.
Also read http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

 

[Yvonne G]

♪ ♫ ♪ Tanya Tanya bo banya, banana fanna fo fanya, fe fi tow Tanya ♪ ♪ ♫

Hi and welcome to the forum!

 

[Tom]

Hi Tanya. I answered the soil question in your other thread. I've started dozens of baby DTs using this care info right here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
I typed this up for russians, but care for DTs is identical.

In the first picture you posted the one tortoise is showing classic tortoise aggression. Because tortoises don't growl, snarl or change their facial expressions, most people fail to recognize the signs of aggression. Following each other around, sleeping face to face, trying to crowd into the same corner, sitting on top of the food, etc… There are many tell tail signs but the bottom line is that one of your tortoises is dominant and wants the other to leave its territory. It is stressful for this tortoise because its threats are not working and the subordinate won't get the heck out of his space. The less dominant tortoise wants to leave the territory of the bully, but can't, and anyone can imagine how stressful that must be. These tortoises need to be separated.

Groups of babies and juveniles can sometimes work out, but not pairs. Its just too personal when its one on one. Groups of adults can sometimes work too, if they are either all female, or one male to several females.

 

[Tom]

Well yeah the Zoomed wouldn't be good for 2 but it is mudular. Also, what makes you think glass tanks are good?

There are a lot of tortoise care myths circulating around out there in the world. A lot of the care info is old, out-dated, based on incorrect assumptions, and just plain wrong. It is clear that you mean well, but it seems you've been reading a lot of this old stuff. Not your fault. There is a lot of it out there.

It would be a good idea if you let us catch you up to speed before you start giving advice to new people. This can cause a lot of confusion when several members jump up and give conflicting advice.

About the glass tanks: Several members here with multiple decades of tortoise keeping experience have been using glass tanks to start babies for a long time. This does not cause any problem and it does not stress them out in any way. I believe this myth started when someone bought a wild caught russian tortoise and stuck it in a small glass tank that the pet store sold them. Well that is WAYYYYY too small for an adult, and a wild caught tortoise, like what you'd buy at a pet store, is especially sensitive to being house in any enclosure that is too small. That same tortoise would try to climb the walls in a wooden enclosure of the same size. In other words, its not the glass that is a problem, its the size of the enclosure and the temperament of the tortoise housed in it.

 

[cmacusa3]

There are a lot of tortoise care myths circulating around out there in the world. A lot of the care info is old, out-dated, based on incorrect assumptions, and just plain wrong. It is clear that you mean well, but it seems you've been reading a lot of this old stuff. Not your fault. There is a lot of it out there.

It would be a good idea if you let us catch you up to speed before you start giving advice to new people. This can cause a lot of confusion when several members jump up and give conflicting advice.

About the glass tanks: Several members here with multiple decades of tortoise keeping experience have been using glass tanks to start babies for a long time. This does not cause any problem and it does not stress them out in any way. I believe this myth started when someone bought a wild caught russian tortoise and stuck it in a small glass tank that the pet store sold them. Well that is WAYYYYY too small for an adult, and a wild caught tortoise, like what you'd buy at a pet store, is especially sensitive to being house in any enclosure that is too small. That same tortoise would try to climb the walls in a wooden enclosure of the same size. In other words, its not the glass that is a problem, its the size of the enclosure and the temperament of the tortoise housed in it.

Much better wording than mine thanks Tom

 

[Carson]

There are a lot of tortoise care myths circulating around out there in the world. A lot of the care info is old, out-dated, based on incorrect assumptions, and just plain wrong. It is clear that you mean well, but it seems you've been reading a lot of this old stuff. Not your fault. There is a lot of it out there.

It would be a good idea if you let us catch you up to speed before you start giving advice to new people. This can cause a lot of confusion when several members jump up and give conflicting advice.

About the glass tanks: Several members here with multiple decades of tortoise keeping experience have been using glass tanks to start babies for a long time. This does not cause any problem and it does not stress them out in any way. I believe this myth started when someone bought a wild caught russian tortoise and stuck it in a small glass tank that the pet store sold them. Well that is WAYYYYY too small for an adult, and a wild caught tortoise, like what you'd buy at a pet store, is especially sensitive to being house in any enclosure that is too small. That same tortoise would try to climb the walls in a wooden enclosure of the same size. In other words, its not the glass that is a problem, its the size of the enclosure and the temperament of the tortoise housed in it.

Thank you so much. I would love to get some useful information. It is sad that the information out there isn't useful at all. Please attach any information that you think is useful for a eastern Hermann tortoise

 

[Carson]

Much better wording than mine thanks Tom

Thank you for helping me I was worried sick

 

[Carson]

There are a lot of tortoise care myths circulating around out there in the world. A lot of the care info is old, out-dated, based on incorrect assumptions, and just plain wrong. It is clear that you mean well, but it seems you've been reading a lot of this old stuff. Not your fault. There is a lot of it out there.

It would be a good idea if you let us catch you up to speed before you start giving advice to new people. This can cause a lot of confusion when several members jump up and give conflicting advice.

About the glass tanks: Several members here with multiple decades of tortoise keeping experience have been using glass tanks to start babies for a long time. This does not cause any problem and it does not stress them out in any way. I believe this myth started when someone bought a wild caught russian tortoise and stuck it in a small glass tank that the pet store sold them. Well that is WAYYYYY too small for an adult, and a wild caught tortoise, like what you'd buy at a pet store, is especially sensitive to being house in any enclosure that is too small. That same tortoise would try to climb the walls in a wooden enclosure of the same size. In other words, its not the glass that is a problem, its the size of the enclosure and the temperament of the tortoise housed in it.

Why does the updated Hermann tortoise care sheet on tortoise forum say that glass tanks are not good for the tortoise and it says a lot of things that I stated at first.

 

[cmacusa3]

Thank you for helping me I was worried sick

No problem, Tom was better at his wording than mine. Trust me when I say the best info is on this forum, along with people who will look out for you and your tortoises best interest

 

[Carson]

No problem, Tom was better at his wording than mine. Trust me when I say the best info is on this forum, along with people who will look out for you and your tortoises best interest

The updated Hermann tortoise care sheet on TF gave a lot of myths and I just don't understand. Please tell me what I can do because it makes me feel bad that I just filled my brain with lots of incorrect knowledge

 

[cmacusa3]

The updated Hermann tortoise care sheet on TF gave a lot of myths and I just don't understand. Please tell me what I can do because it makes me feel bad that I just filled my brain with lots of incorrect knowledge

I have honestly never looked at that care sheet because I don't have that species. Here is what I will tell you my thoughts are on it though. The individual that wrote it is probably very knowledgeable and an expert with that species and that method works for them and I'm not here to question their ways, however I will agree with Tom about the myths of glass. I've never once had an issue with it period.

 

[Carson]

I have honestly never looked at that care sheet because I don't have that species. Here is what I will tell you my thoughts are on it though. The individual that wrote it is probably very knowledgeable and an expert with that species and that method works for them and I'm not here to question their ways, however I will agree with Tom about the myths of glass. I've never once had an issue with it period.

Wow! Thank you!

 

[Carson]

Wow! Thank you!

Do you think the substrate mixture that I said was good

 

[Tanyabobanya]

Hi Tanya. I answered the soil question in your other thread. I've started dozens of baby DTs using this care info right here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
I typed this up for russians, but care for DTs is identical.

In the first picture you posted the one tortoise is showing classic tortoise aggression. Because tortoises don't growl, snarl or change their facial expressions, most people fail to recognize the signs of aggression. Following each other around, sleeping face to face, trying to crowd into the same corner, sitting on top of the food, etc… There are many tell tail signs but the bottom line is that one of your tortoises is dominant and wants the other to leave its territory. It is stressful for this tortoise because its threats are not working and the subordinate won't get the heck out of his space. The less dominant tortoise wants to leave the territory of the bully, but can't, and anyone can imagine how stressful that must be. These tortoises need to be separated.

Groups of babies and juveniles can sometimes work out, but not pairs. Its just too personal when its one on one. Groups of adults can sometimes work too, if they are either all female, or one male to several females.

Wow.. I didn't know that! I thought they were snuggling. I'm heart broken. The way my mom raised them was a few to tank. She still has one adult offspring and the parents in her back yard. So I need to get another bookcase. I'll read your reply in the other forum. I wasn't sure if I posted correctly because I didn't take the time to read guidelines, got kids here running around all day and an u finished tortoise bookcase. I have blocks of the coconut coir I could use for now. I talked to someone who said not to use it because it causes respiratory problems. Here we go again. And the tank can cook them. And that the glass should be covered because of a lack of depth perception. They just circle the tank. So I put up desert scenes. Again, I grew up with tortoises and still am unsure of the right way to raise them happily. Sigh. I won't ask what brand of soil to get because u probably answered it already. My neck hurts. Tortoise aggression?? Are you positive. If I had time I'd loook for the "morning snuggling" photos. When I introduced the second one after it was born, the first one did seem unhappy and I was scared it was trying to bite the other. They calmed down after a day. Thank you for your help!

 

[Tom]

Wow.. I didn't know that! I thought they were snuggling. I'm heart broken. The way my mom raised them was a few to tank. She still has one adult offspring and the parents in her back yard. So I need to get another bookcase. I'll read your reply in the other forum. I wasn't sure if I posted correctly because I didn't take the time to read guidelines, got kids here running around all day and an u finished tortoise bookcase. I have blocks of the coconut coir I could use for now. I talked to someone who said not to use it because it causes respiratory problems. Here we go again. And the tank can cook them. And that the glass should be covered because of a lack of depth perception. They just circle the tank. So I put up desert scenes. Again, I grew up with tortoises and still am unsure of the right way to raise them happily. Sigh. I won't ask what brand of soil to get because u probably answered it already. My neck hurts. Tortoise aggression?? Are you positive. If I had time I'd loook for the "morning snuggling" photos. When I introduced the second one after it was born, the first one did seem unhappy and I was scared it was trying to bite the other. They calmed down after a day. Thank you for your help!

Snuggling is the two of them vying for the same space. Its one trying to be pushy with the other.

Feel free to ask lots of questions. We are happy to help and to share our experiences.

 

[Tanyabobanya]

I don't care what anyone says, this is snuggling and sibling love, unlike my two boys who fight constantly. Don't shatter my dreams they're all I've got

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Sorry if you are upset but we only want what is best for your tortoises. We have seen tortoises 'snuggling' so many times turn into psychological bullying where one become sick or stops eating, becomes withdrawn and 'miserable'. Or is physically injured or even killed. We are not trying to be mean. Tortoises don't have sibling love, they are happiest alone with their own territory. Groups sometimes work, pairs just don't.
We've already posted a couple of threads to show examples, here's another one http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/. There are dozens more. It's obvious you love your tortoises and want the best for them, so I'm afraid they really need to be separated to give them the best possible life.