Shell Rot....What to do?

[Seth Heitzenrater]

Have a 9yr old Sulcata Tortoise on the coast in Northern California. Was cleaning him the other day and noticed what I think to be shell rot on the bottom of his shell. Taking him to the vet on Thursday, but wondering if there is anything that I can do now to prevent the rot from getting any worse.

 

[Pearly]

I hope i'm wrong but i think i see flesh and little blood there. Definitely vet! Is your sully acting normal? Eating drinking/moving/walking? Any changes? And.... welcome to the forum!

 

[Seth Heitzenrater]

Thanks for responding so quick. We are taking him into the vet on Thursday. He's acting normal.

We've had a considerable amount of rain in the past few weeks here and I few that may have been a culprit.

My question now is what are the best courses of action to prevent the rot from getting worse.

 

[cmacusa3]

I'm going to tag @Tom I would be interested in his thought on this.

It doesn't sleep on a heat mat does it.

 

[Seth Heitzenrater]

It does sleep on a heat mat

 

[cmacusa3]

It does sleep on a heat mat

I'm wondering if it wasn't burned and that's the culprit

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Yes.
It doesn't look like she'll rot as I've ever seen it.

 

[Pearly]

I'm going to tag @Tom I would be interested in his thought on this.

It doesn't sleep on a heat mat does it.

Ahhhh!!! I didn't even think of heat mat!!!! Would it cause this kind of plastron deformation???? @Yvonne G have you ever seen such thing??? I kept going back between the pics of carapace and plastron and it just didn't make sense! Plastron looking as of a very sick animal and healthy beautiful carapace... I'm going to do some digging on that. I have known from you guys here that heat mats were a "no no" and I even had bought one prior to getting my babies but returned it to the store after joining the forum... How warm do those heat mats get???? Are they like human heating pads? Those on high or even medium setting are known to severely burn people with neuropaties

 

[Yvonne G]

No, not a heat mat. That's from sitting on old poop and pee. You need to clean out his shelter daily so he's not sitting in pee-soaked poop.

He has a very unusual (deformed?) plastron. Lay him on his back outside in the sun and take a brush and the hose to that plastron. Clean it off. Scrub it good with the brush, then rinse it well. In the meantime, clean out his shelter. Don't use any substrate (hay, etc.) in the shelter, just have bare floor. And clean it out daily.

 

[Yvonne G]

I see I didn't go far enough. Once you have it all cleaned off and it's dry, you can dab on some Neosporin to help it heal. I don't think it's actual rot, just raw and irritated.

 

[cmacusa3]

No, not a heat mat. That's from sitting on old poop and pee. You need to clean out his shelter daily so he's not sitting in pee-soaked poop.

He has a very unusual (deformed?) plastron. Lay him on his back outside in the sun and take a brush and the hose to that plastron. Clean it off. Scrub it good with the brush, then rinse it well. In the meantime, clean out his shelter. Don't use any substrate (hay, etc.) in the shelter, just have bare floor. And clean it out daily.

I can agree but I still suspect a heat mat issue combined with what you said. I got a box turtle like this one time that had similar issues and a heat mat was the main culprit, he sat in the warm cooked bio all the time.

 

[Markw84]

This is not new and did not happen the past few months. The part in question is starting to heal but the plastron shows this has been an ongoing problem most of it's life. Agree with Yvonne in that is looks like he has been using a night shelter that he sits on his poop/pee. I do think it does look like he may be sitting on a heat mat not designed for this type use. It looks like his bottom gets way too hot and has constantly heated and deformed over the years. Fomr the one picture the carapace looks completely normal, yet the plastron of this male is totally disfigured. Even his tail seems "burnt" along the side that comes in contact with the surface he is laying on.

Can you possibly share pictures of his enclosure and shelter he stays in at night and describe how he is kept? Temps, heat/light source, etc? When I lived in Pleasanton 20+ years ago, with the humid/cool marine influence from the N Cal coast, I had one of my younger sulcatas start to show the beginnings of plastral problems but immediately changed the night shelter and adjusted. Never had problems again. Please let us help you see if this is the issure.

Thank you for looking out for the best for your tortoise.

 

[Seth Heitzenrater]

This is Code 3's cage. We just recently got him from another owner from Salinas, CA who brought him up to his 9 years of age.

This is the cage that he gave to us and the heating pad that he sleeps on every night. (BTW- he goes into the cage every night around 4/5pm to sleep. He's not dead from the looks in this image. And we did just recently clean his home/ Shell Shack)

If it is best practice to clean his home every day do we need to thoroughly clean and sanitize it? Are there any best practices for what his home should look like? Preferred heat lamps? It does get cold (and significantly cold) here on the coast in the Monterey Bay (Santa Cruz). As he goes out during the day, he definitely suns himself around the yard in the warm spots. Would hate to make the igloo to hot for him with the wrong heat lamp.

He's going to the vet tomorrow to diagnose the issue and thank you all so much for the info.




re

H

This is not new and did not happen the past few months. The part in question is starting to heal but the plastron shows this has been an ongoing problem most of it's life. Agree with Yvonne in that is looks like he has been using a night shelter that he sits on his poop/pee. I do think it does look like he may be sitting on a heat mat not designed for this type use. It looks like his bottom gets way too hot and has constantly heated and deformed over the years. Fomr the one picture the carapace looks completely normal, yet the plastron of this male is totally disfigured. Even his tail seems "burnt" along the side that comes in contact with the surface he is laying on.

Can you possibly share pictures of his enclosure and shelter he stays in at night and describe how he is kept? Temps, heat/light source, etc? When I lived in Pleasanton 20+ years ago, with the humid/cool marine influence from the N Cal coast, I had one of my younger sulcatas start to show the beginnings of plastral problems but immediately changed the night shelter and adjusted. Never had problems again. Please let us help you see if this is the issure.

Thank you for looking out for the best for your tortoise.

 

[Markw84]

@Seth Heitzenrater

Seth: Thank you again for caring enough to seek out help for the best for your tortoise. And it is really appreciated that you are willing to seek input an make changes.

Your tortoise does not have shell rot. Those are burns and resulting injuries from trying to stay warm enough on the heat pad. Unfortunately your tortoise has been struggling with this apparently his whole life as that is the way the previous owner had him set up.

Many, many years ago, I lived in and had tortoises in Marina, so I am very familiar with your climate and trying to keep tortoises there. The igloo you have been given to use is just not suited for use for a tortoise. It will not heat up properly or retain heat, so your tortoise is forced to try to find heat and will sit on the heat pad even if it is hot enough to burn!! A sulcata needs temperatures that stay more in the low 80's overnight, with no direct hot spots. IN the daytime, they need to be able to heat their body temperatures up to at least the high 80's to be able to metabolize food and thrive. On a sunny day, even in the low 70's, a basking sulcata will choose a site near a south facing fence or wall and can easily get his shell temperature up to 100f. They are amazingly constructed solar collectors. At night, they would normally find the shelter of a burrow for stable temperatures and higher humidity. In Africa, that would mean around 80f in the burrow, but a constant even 80f with no heat from above or below. Tortoises are not equipped to absorb heat from below, and in an effort to warm to a more comfortable 80f will even burn their plastron waiting for their body to heat up. They are built to understand when their carapace gets too hot in the sun, but are not so equipped when the heat is from below.

So what we have found to best emulate the even night heat in a burrow, is to build a night box with a heat panel above and Kane heat mat below - IMPORTANTLY set on a thermostat to moderate at the low 80's. Neither heat source allowed to get too hot. The Kane heat mats have built in regulators that never allow it to get above 100, but it will not even reach that temperature with a well insulated night box and thermostat control. Please take a look at this thread on how to build a night box for a sulcata. Most all of the successful sulcata owners here have gone to this type setup as it is so superior to anything else we have tried. Some do use large heated shed very successfully, but that is if you have the room for a devoted tortoise shed.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/

At the vet tomorrow, be sure the vet has tortoise experience. Your tortoise is healing, but you do not want infection to get a hold. It is not shell rot. I would start a regimen of daily soaks in warm water that comes up to where the marginals meet the costals. Use a large opaque tube he cannot climb out of, and let him soak for at least 20-30 minutes. We wnat him well hydrated, and the plastron kept clean. Clean it best you can after the soak and apply some Neosporin. Do that for the next two weeks.

As far as cleaning the night box - I watch mine to see that poop is not piling up and soaked with pee. You don't have to sanitize it, but keep it scraped out or swept out.

Good luck with your tortoise. He has lots of growing to do yet and lots of great life ahead. (My larger ones couldn't even fit in that igloo!)

Keep us updated. AND... Welcome to the forum. I have been keeping tortoises for over 50 years now, and have learned a TON here in the past 5 years.

 

[Tom]

This is Code 3's cage. We just recently got him from another owner from Salinas, CA who brought him up to his 9 years of age.

This is the cage that he gave to us and the heating pad that he sleeps on every night. (BTW- he goes into the cage every night around 4/5pm to sleep. He's not dead from the looks in this image. And we did just recently clean his home/ Shell Shack)

If it is best practice to clean his home every day do we need to thoroughly clean and sanitize it? Are there any best practices for what his home should look like? Preferred heat lamps? It does get cold (and significantly cold) here on the coast in the Monterey Bay (Santa Cruz). As he goes out during the day, he definitely suns himself around the yard in the warm spots. Would hate to make the igloo to hot for him with the wrong heat lamp.

He's going to the vet tomorrow to diagnose the issue and thank you all so much for the info.

Dog houses don't work well for tortoises. The doors are too big, they aren't insulated enough, the ceilings are too tall, etc… What ends up happening in them is the air is too cold, so your tortoise just sits on that heat mat cooking all night long and never gets warm enough, even though the bottom of the carapace in contact with the pad is too hot. Burns happen in dog houses all the time because of this. And its not a "burn" in the sense of what we normally envision. Its a "slow burn" where the cells in that location just get too hot and die.

Like wise, heat lamps are no good for larger tortoises either. Same problem in reverse. The top of the carapace gets too hot, but the tortoise doesn't move away from the lamp because the air and the rest of its body are too cold. Sulcatas with burned carapaces are very common.

I've tried all sorts of ways to house and heat them over many years, and I've spent a lot of time observing how other people do it too. There have been many steps to reach this final design, but this is what I've found to work the best.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/

In the first one, you can see I'm using a heat mat in combo with a radiant het panel over head. I use Kane heat mats because they have built in redundant safeties. You'll also notice that the tortoise has plenty of room to get off of the heat mat, but still be inside its warm box. What you can't see in the thread so well, is that all the insulation and sealing done on those boxes, mean they hold a steady temp even on cold nights, so the heat mat isn't running all night, and temperatures stay plenty warm inside the box even when the tortoise is not on the heat mat. You can't keep warm air in a dogloo.

 

[Seth Heitzenrater]

I wanted to provide an update on Code 3 to date. We took him to the vet last week and the vets diagnosis of Code 3's spot on his belly was not 100% conclusive.

They took him in for the day and debridled his carapace where he had dead shell. We were concerned the spot on his chest would go deep from his lifetime of living on his heating mat and fortunately it only went a soft tissue.

We have been keeping him in his home on the porch for the past week, applying an SSD (silver) cream for healing his shell (it has been working great!, we did need a prescription from the vet for the cream)

We also were given antibiotic shots to give Code 3 every 3 days.

He is healing well and we have been soaking him once a day in an Iodine bath to help keep his shell clean.

We've also stopped using the heating mat at this time while his carapace heals.

We plan on the following things to improve his shell:

1) create a better insulated home for Code 3 outdoors. Thank you Tom for the suggestions on the tortoise homes.
2) Soak him in a warm bath every couple days to keep his shell clean
3) protect the heat on the heating mat from being to strong by automating the temperature better

Thank you all so much for the information!

 

[Yvonne G]

@Seth Heitzenrater - I also use that kind of pig blanket for my sulcata, but I have it plugged into the F911 controller and I dial the temp up or down as needed. I keep it mainly at about 5, which keep the pad around 75-80F degrees. On colder nights I sometimes have to move it up to 6 or 7. I have found that without the controller the pad gets too hot.

Don't use the iodine wash any more. It inhibits the growth of new cells. It's good for a one time use, but not good to continue using it.

I pick the poop out of Dudley's shed daily and sweep out the dust, but I don't ever "sanitize" it. Naturally, you'll have to keep you tortoise's floor cleaner while he's healing.


Here's a look at Dudley's shed:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/dudleys-rebuild.111350/

I chose this design because I'm old and I didn't want to have to open a lid and lean in to clean the poop. With a walk-in shed I just go in with my poop scoop and broom and clean to my heart's content.

 

[Pearly]

@Seth Heitzenrater - I also use that kind of pig blanket for my sulcata, but I have it plugged into the F911 controller and I dial the temp up or down as needed. I keep it mainly at about 5, which keep the pad around 75-80F degrees. On colder nights I sometimes have to move it up to 6 or 7. I have found that without the controller the pad gets too hot.

Don't use the iodine wash any more. It inhibits the growth of new cells. It's good for a one time use, but not good to continue using it.

I pick the poop out of Dudley's shed daily and sweep out the dust, but I don't ever "sanitize" it. Naturally, you'll have to keep you tortoise's floor cleaner while he's healing.


Here's a look at Dudley's shed:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/dudleys-rebuild.111350/

I chose this design because I'm old and I didn't want to have to open a lid and lean in to clean the poop. With a walk-in shed I just go in with my poop scoop and broom and clean to my heart's content.

Just found this. Very timely. Thank you for posting all the pics. I need as many ideas as I can get love your shed!