Sand and Loam Mix?

J.T.

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Hey everyone! I've tried several types of substrate by now in hope of finding "the right one" but it seems like I just keep spending lots of money without even getting close to figuring things out... There is just so much mixed and wrong information out there that I'm compleatly disoriented by now...

I keep my little ones in a "rabbit" cage that is 100x50cm. I first started using coco coir as subtrate because I kept reading that it was safe and held moisture well. I found it did neither. I poured in about two litres of water every week and mixed it but within a couple of days the water always ended up pooling at the bottom leaving the top layer dry and dusty. So dusty in fact that my tortoises eyes started to get watery and they couldnt walk without sinking in. On top of it they started eating the damn stuff and long coco strings were constanly hanging out their mouths and butts.

So next thing I did was try a soil/sand mix. I went a bought a huge sack of biological planting soil and mixed that with playing sand (something I picked up from tortoisetrust.org). I figured they'd be able to walk better on it. No such luck... The ground ended up just as soft as before. Since their eyes got better though yi thought I just needed something to make it firmer.
Then I found a sand/loam mix for digging reptiles at a pet store and decided to mix that into the existing substrat and i really like the firmness of it. So much, that I was considering switching to Lucky Reptiles Desert Bedding altogether until I singned up here yesterday and saw that pretty much everyone thinks sand is dangerous.
I feed them outside their enclosure after their dayly soak on a large slate tile to keep them from eating sand. Is it still too dangerous to use sand that way? And would it be imposible to maintain moisture with the desert bedding?

Another problem I've had with all subtrates so far is that they get themselves compleatly caked in dirt when they walk through their water dish. I've tried putting stones and pebbles around the dish to prevent that but there's just no way... Thanks in advance guys.
 

jaizei

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It's hard for some to understand, but there is a vast difference between using 100% sand and using a mix that contains some sand. I can't comment on that particular product but I typically use some sort of mix of topsoil (preferably a loam), compost, and coir, sometimes with mulch or bark in areas. I believe in well planted enclosures so the substrate needs to be a growing medium as well and using just bark, mulch, or coir doesn't work as well.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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You came to us for info. To help your tort .that is right . True . We have lots of experience with torts . I have 15 years of experience with many types of torts . My first question is who told you to use a " rabbit cage " for a tort ? If your asking how to keep the sub straight out of the water dish ? We would tell you to put small flat river stones around the water dish ( small is about 2 inch ) and most of us will tell never use sand because the tort will eat it . And most of all where's the Picts of your problems so we can see your problems , and try to help you . Well sorry if I made you mad cause all we want is the tort happy ! Don't you ? Have a great tort day !
 

Tom

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It's hard for some to understand, but there is a vast difference between using 100% sand and using a mix that contains some sand.

Again with the thinly veiled insults...

The concept is not hard to understand at all. Why is it so hard for YOU to understand that tortoises still get impacted on sand mixtures too?
 

jaizei

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Again with the thinly veiled insults...

The concept is not hard to understand at all. Why is it so hard for YOU to understand that tortoises still get impacted on sand mixtures too?


Do you have something to add to the thread? Or do you need a moment to regain your composure?
 

Tom

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Hey everyone! I've tried several types of substrate by now in hope of finding "the right one" but it seems like I just keep spending lots of money without even getting close to figuring things out... There is just so much mixed and wrong information out there that I'm compleatly disoriented by now...

I keep my little ones in a "rabbit" cage that is 100x50cm. I first started using coco coir as subtrate because I kept reading that it was safe and held moisture well. I found it did neither. I poured in about two litres of water every week and mixed it but within a couple of days the water always ended up pooling at the bottom leaving the top layer dry and dusty. So dusty in fact that my tortoises eyes started to get watery and they couldnt walk without sinking in. On top of it they started eating the damn stuff and long coco strings were constanly hanging out their mouths and butts.

So next thing I did was try a soil/sand mix. I went a bought a huge sack of biological planting soil and mixed that with playing sand (something I picked up from tortoisetrust.org). I figured they'd be able to walk better on it. No such luck... The ground ended up just as soft as before. Since their eyes got better though yi thought I just needed something to make it firmer.
Then I found a sand/loam mix for digging reptiles at a pet store and decided to mix that into the existing substrat and i really like the firmness of it. So much, that I was considering switching to Lucky Reptiles Desert Bedding altogether until I singned up here yesterday and saw that pretty much everyone thinks sand is dangerous.
I feed them outside their enclosure after their dayly soak on a large slate tile to keep them from eating sand. Is it still too dangerous to use sand that way? And would it be imposible to maintain moisture with the desert bedding?

Another problem I've had with all subtrates so far is that they get themselves compleatly caked in dirt when they walk through their water dish. I've tried putting stones and pebbles around the dish to prevent that but there's just no way... Thanks in advance guys.

That is an awfully small enclosure. How many tortoise, what species and what size?

Coco coir does hold moisture as well as anything else. Your problem is not the substrate, your problem is the wide open top and low walls allowing the enclosure air to mix with the room air that is too dry. A closed chamber will help contain your humidity and heat.

Sand can cause impactions even when used as part of a mixture. Does it ALWAYS cause an impaction? No. Can it? Yes. I've seen plenty of cases in the offices of my vet friends. The risk is not worth it.

Coco coir works well for me with young Testudo species. For other species I prefer orchid bark.

I don't like "soil", "top soil" or "loam" because you have no idea what it is made of. It is a combination of some sort composted plant matter mixed with other things, but what is it? Is it oleander? Is it grass and mulberry leaves? Azaleas and roses sprayed with pesticides? I'd rather use a product that tells me exactly what all the ingredients are. Something that I know to be safe from years of people using it.
 

Tom

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Do you have something to add to the thread? Or do you need a moment to regain your composure?

Do you? Or did you just come here to tell everyone how stupid they are for not understanding the difference between all sand and sand mixtures.
 

J.T.

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Ooook... I didn't really want to start a fight or anything people. I wasn't complaining about anyone here and I'm sorry if it came off that way.
All I was saying is that I've spend dozens of hours researching stuff all over the internet in three different languages and I've come up with sooo much info that I just don't know what to do anymore. I ended up registering on this forum because it sounds like people really know their stuff here and I can actually ask question as well. I guess I forgot to mention that the enclosure is for two little Hermann's tortoises. They're both around 11 months old and not bigger than 5cm.
I had a Tortoise table build for them but it broke and I had to find something that would last a couple of months until I can build a new one. Is the size really too small for that purpose?... The original table I had was 120x60 and I was gonna go for 150x60 for the next table I build.
I chose a rabbit cage because people use plastic containers all the time and it was the biggest I could find. I use the wire top to set up my lamps. The standarts and opinions on how to keep your tortoise are very different here in Germany. Vets, breeders and forums are generally against keeping mediterranean tortoises in anything that has high walls because it won't allow for sufficient air flow.
Anyway... I just got scared about the sand mix they're in right now and wanted to know if I need to change the substrate to something else entirely and whether I might've just picked a bad brand of coco coir. Maybe something with less of those long strings.
I'll just add a couple of pics of my current set up...
image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
 

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wellington

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Don't worry, not you that's started anything. You really should change your enclosure though. That is really not a good one for tortoises. If you used a closed chamber or even one with solid higher sides and cover most of the enclosure you will find that the humidity will work much more easy for you. Also, the coir is kane of the best, only thing I use. It does hokd humdiity in a proper enclosure really well, if not the best and it won't mold. If you wet it and pat it down tightly, it doesn't stick to them as easily.

To everyone else,
Continue with helpful info not mud slinging. Everyone has their mixture that works for them. Although lots of us don't like sand or dirt, it's not like the tortoises will never encounter it in the wild. A nice post about the dangers of it is all that is needed. Keep personal feelings out please.
 

J.T.

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How high does the humidity need to be because our climate is fairly humid here and so is the room usually. I sprayed the enclosure this morning and humidity is at 69% right now. It usually doesn't go below 60%. It's just the substrate that gets dry and dusty... Do I maybe not wet it enough? How often and how much water should be put into the substrate?

Also is it safe for them to bask on slate?
 

wellington

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I don't know for your species, but @HermanniChris can help you on that.
The slate is fine. Many will put that or flat rocks under the basking light. Just make sure it's in the correct basking temp. A temp gun is a perfect tool to have for that. They are pretty cheap around 10 bucks or so.
 

leigti

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Spraying the substrate won't help much. Actually pour water into it and stir it all around with your hands. You don't want it soupy but you wanted to hold it's shape if you pressed it with your hands. Check out the species specific section for information for your type of tortoise, sorry I can't remember what they are right now.
I also found it overwhelming at first, conflicting information everywhere. It is difficult when you can't trust pet stores, vets, or books. Or half of what you read on the Internet. But this forum is the best place to get the information you need. Don't worry about your post starting an argument, it happens to us all. People are very passionate about their tortoises here. Please don't be afraid to ask questions.
 
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