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Pyramiding is due to excess Heat, not lack of Humidity?

Discussion in 'Advanced Tortoise Topics' started by AMMG, Mar 9, 2016.

  1. Markw84

    Markw84 Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Barb, I love ya, but just have to comment. I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but the cocker spaniel, you use as an example, you may wish to purchase would never exist, then.
  2. wellington

    wellington Well-Known Member Moderator 5 Year Member

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    I know what your saying. They are all, well almost all, derived from mixing breeds. Believe me I get that. If I lived way back when most breeds were being developed, I wouldn't like it then either. Enough is enough now. Every breed/species that exist now, doesn't have to be altered yet again, specially when it's only for the sake of money. Human kind never seems to have enough. Take care of what we have now, properly, or as properly as we can learn how to.
  3. BrianWI

    BrianWI Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Then we'd have no dogs, cats, chickens, cows... Such silliness.
  4. Cowboy_Ken

    Cowboy_Ken Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    As recent evidence suggests, "domestic dogs" have been "domesticated" twice now, with the current group the "second" group. If I get requests, I'll look it up and post it, but I'm not so sure this is on topic as it were…
  5. wellington

    wellington Well-Known Member Moderator 5 Year Member

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    Wrong
  6. BrianWI

    BrianWI Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Yes, you are.
  7. Markw84

    Markw84 Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Actually, this is quite correct. Brian believes in terse replies that don't add information. But I find it fascinating.

    These animals are quite different than the wild animals they were derived from. Probably the wolves of Asia and (independently) the wolves of the middle East and Europe are what we "didn't leave alone" along with the African wild cat, the Jungle fowl, and the Aurochs (a wild ox). Not to mention the wild Boar, and the Przewalski's horse.
    Yvonne G likes this.
  8. BrianWI

    BrianWI Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    I generally mirror the post I am replying too. If you want further information, just ask.

    Simply put, domestication, or "messing with genetics, etc., is certainly necessary. Can you imagine the strain on wild populations if we didn't have animals bred to be far superior food sources? Or plants for that matter? No hybrid corn, no golden rice, no chickens that lay an egg a day every day or broilers you can raise to butcher in 5 weeks with excellent feed conversion? We would have eaten every other animal and plant into extinction!.

    Think about Lonesome George. He was the last of his kind. But, we have now found "half Lonesome Georges" in another area. And by manipulating their genetics, we could restore his kind.

    Too often people mistake breeding pets with the idea of conservation. 99 times out of 100, it simply doesn't apply. If you want a hairless rat, breed one and let your conscience be clear.
    cmac3 likes this.
  9. Tom

    Tom The Dog Trainer 5 Year Member

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    Barb, I love ya', but I gotta go against you on this one. Humans have been "tampering" with animals since the dawn of time, whenever each of us believes that was. Sometimes it is disastrous (cane toads, anyone?) and other times it is greatly beneficial to the whole human species, as in dogs, and the examples Brian listed.
  10. Cowboy_Ken

    Cowboy_Ken Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    And the very delicious walking steak or roast beef,(not the type with all the initials following beef). I'm talking pasture raised, grass fed beef here, not fast food beef products.
  11. Tom

    Tom The Dog Trainer 5 Year Member

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    You would LOVE a South African steak… mmmmmmmm...
  12. BrianWI

    BrianWI Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    MMMMMmmm Steak.... (In my best Homer Simpson voice)
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  13. Will

    Will Well-Known Member

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    Well Barb et al, hairless animals like rats and mice are not bred to hairless as the intended result. They are bred to have a poor immune response, the hairlessness just comes along with the selecting for poor immune response.

    Immune compromised animals are important models for understanding disease response to drugs. If the rats own immune response kept knocking the disease out, then the researcher would never be able to see the effect of the drug.

    So a hairless mouse, or immunocomprimised mouse might be given a human cancer, then a drug is tried out on the mouse. No humans are harmed in the experiment, the FDA has a really strong dislike for that. Even though it is a human cancer that is tested.

    There are haired mice with no immune system too. It is much more difficult to see what is happening, the cancer cells are implanted Sub Q, so the tumor growth and death can be observed. Tens of millions of mice and rats are used this way every year. Very nearly everyone alive today, less a few untouched groups of people deep in various jungles, are alive at the benefit of this kind of research. It is very well represented in every medication. Even drugs that were developed before this kind of testing was routine, have subsequently been tested with this methodology.

    Most all rodent reptile food is from strains of mice and rats bred for this kind of research. They do really well in captivity. So now you know.
  14. Markw84

    Markw84 Well-Known Member 5 Year Member

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    Amazing how a thread gets off track!

    Or... Does a hairless mouse pyramid if kept too dry or warm?
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  15. Yvonne G

    Yvonne G Old Timer TFO Admin 5 Year Member Platinum Supporter

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    ...I forget...remind me again: What were we talking about?
  16. Will

    Will Well-Known Member

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    Hairless mice do have skin issues if kept to dry or to humid. It also affects their immune response.

    Well, it is on track, back to the experiment, the experiment was poor. See that's what I do these days, experiment with animals for human health. I can also read and interpret experiments for animal health as well.

    The larger POV expressed by wellington is the one that brings us back to the experiment. People apart from nature, not people as a part of nature. We are by far the most modifying of our ecosystem.

    Gopher tortoises for example are ecosystem modifiers and several hundred other species have come to rely on their burrows. We have modified most ecosystems at an extreme expense, as well as modifying the organisms themselves (Barb's point). I don't know what the end result will be, eventually all more complex organisms modify themselves into a precarious existence, followed by extinction. We, as humans, just seem to be taking several other species along with us. Just is, no point in getting to much into saying it's good or bad. I will surly die before the current magnitude of human interventions into the natural world will play all the way out.

    So we are on track, it is the nature of intellectual curiosity to not be bound by the first sentence in the first paragraph of a current conversation. It's okay to color outside the lines as long as it still looks good. If it doesn't look good to you, then look away.
    Ellen & Toby, Markw84 and cmac3 like this.
  17. FLINTUS

    FLINTUS Well-Known Member

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    Tom I think we've discussed this before with regards to variations in humidity, and my belief that they still need time to dry out the scutes to avoid them becoming too dense.Whilst I'm sure you didn't intend it like so, saying 'it's hot in Africa' even humourously may suggest the wrong message to some less experienced keepers. Big place, but large parts of it certainly cool A LOT at night, particularly those inland. That as Craig @Anyfoot correctly asserted causes the morning dew and the rise in humidity. Variations must be key to the health of most tortoises. I don't doubt the burrows keep them warmer than at ground level, but babies are unlikely to be that deep down anyway, and the burrows I saw of Kenyan Leopards were not that deep at all.
    johnreuk likes this.
  18. Champoi bibiano

    Champoi bibiano Member

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    Im not so sure about this haha.
Similar Threads: Pyramiding excess
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