Proud owner of two new Hermann tortoises

[Kieran Marshall]

I will be a proud Tortoise owner of two 1 year old Herman tortoises in a few days which will be kept indoors. I have done a lot of research and hoping i have done enough to give both of the new additions everything they need. I had a few questions/ concerns but perhaps you could answer this ?

my setup includes a 40 by 24 by 8 tortoise table with fake plants for hiding, sterilised top soil which is 100% natural, mixed with play sand. I am using pine cat litter chemical free in the housing compartment of the table. I have a slim reptile bowl for water and a 30 cm raised reflector dome with a 100 watt megaray uv heat combined bulb.


1) is it best to just go buy a calcium powder supplement or should i also buy a cuttlebone? Do i need anything else with the calcium supplement
2) in the event that weeds are not available what is the best everyday food i could feed them both in place of this? i suspect that they need feeding 5 of the 7 days of the week or should it be everyday?

3) how often would they need bathing and cleaning out ? i am not too sure of this?
4) to protect the tortoise table i am lining it with a black membrane which the soil will fall on top of this just to protect the quality of the wood, does anyone have a concern with having the membrane at the base?

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Hi Kieran

 

[threeboxerlover]

I also have two Hermanns! They are awesome little guys/gals. When I got my first, I started researching here prior to picking him up and I'm glad I did because half of what I thought I knew, was all wrong! Anyway, the best place to start:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/ and
here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/
There are instructions on temperature, lighting, substrate, calcium, humidity etc.
I'm not sure about the pine cat litter - I have never heard of anyone using that and honestly, I think that sounds like it would be drying and babies need humidity (the sheets above give you the range). We soak ours pretty much every day and they always have fresh water available. They need to be fed every day - weeds are the best, but there is a list of food for Hermanns on the forum somewhere.
You didn't ask this - but from everything I've read on here and elsewhere - keeping them together in the same enclosure is not a good idea. There are a bunch of threads on here about keeping a pair of torts. Also, my oldest tortoise had an issue with flipping over - part of the problem was the food/water dishes were not right for tortoises - someone here recommended the clay saucers (used under flower pots) and that has helped.

Best of luck with them!

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Hello, Kieran, and a very warm welcome to Tortoise Forum.
Threeboxerlover is right, tortoises should not be kept in pairs, i'm afraid, they are solitary, territorial and aggressive creatures and, though groups sometimes can work, pairs rarely do, see http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...earned-the-hard-way.94114/page-7#post-1513169 for just an example of many threads on why this is a bad idea.
The enclosure isn't big enough for one tortoise really, never mind two. Four foot by eight for a lone tortoise is a minimum, but if these are still quite small, each could manage in something a little smaller for a while.
I wouldn't use the play sand, it is an impaction risk, and, as has been said, the cat litter would remove the humidity they need and is definitely a no no.
I agree about the cheap, shallow, terracotta plant saucers sunk into the substrate, too, wide enough for a tortoise to soak in.
1) I use cuttlebone. But some torts won't use it at all,so you can scrape a little onto the food a couple of times a week. Some prefer a calcium supplement sprinkled on.
2) Feed every day. Put food down early in the morning. If it is all gone at night, it wasn't enough so put more down the next day, as long as they have room to exercise, they won't get fat. i like this food list.: http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm
3) Soak two or three times a week to a level just above where the plastron joins the carapace in warm water for 20 minutes or so. A high sided opaque container they can't see out of is best for this.
4) Many people use shower curtains or pond liners in their enclosures, it's fine as long as the material isn't toxic.

 

[Kieran Marshall]

Good morning guys,

thank you for your comments and truly grateful for your time. I also am taking on board all your advice The sand and the cat pellets I also was not sure of but the breeder i am buying the tortoises from tomorrow has this set up for his 50 babies and swears by them for the 20 or so years he has bread tortoises for.

The cat pellets are made from 100% pine and natural ingredients so does not come across dry and I think this may be OK to use in the housing part. If you do not recommend the sand shall I just stick with the top soil?

The sand the breeder uses is to make sure the top soil is not too moist as it can cause problems as tortoises do not like to too damp environments? Assuming this is true then I could find a substitute for the sand if you had any ideas to mix with the sterilised top soil?

I am planning to keep both Hermanns in the 40 inch table for a few years so by the time they are four - five (Hibernation thinking time) I will either get a new enclosure or look at separating them. If they look like they are arguing before hand I will look to separate sooner. The breeder has said its likely they are both female from the way the eggs were incubated but guess cannot be sure util they are 4-5 years old. If they are female my research says that they should be able to live together, its just any other combination that I need to watch out for. either way I will keep an eye and look at the mood of both to see how things go.

Just in the middle of painting the cool tortoise table and picking up the tortoises tomorrow evening - my little boy is very excited! I will of course post pictures of the table and the tortoises tomorrow

 

[Kieran Marshall]

also just to add, the membrane i am using is not plastic waterproof its a material just to separate the soil from the base wood. You think this is OK, i do not believe its toxic but just wondering if just if the Hermanns decide to dig deep enough to eat the membrane would it be safe for them?

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Unfortunately, a lot of dealers, breeders ans even vets are using old, outdated and sometimes dangerous information.
People used to think (and many still do) that tortoises are desert creatures and like dry, sandy conditions. This is wrong. They are born in the wet/ monsoon season and live their days in moist burrows during the summer heat, coming out in the early morning and evening to forage for food. I live in one of these.
countries. Please read the links posted that contain more accurate tortoise care info. The house has to be especially humid.
Please read http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/
and http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/
also http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.48694/
to give you an idea as to why humidity is so important.
The environment should be moist and humid, not cold and wet. The humid hide is essential, not dry at all in there!
Fine grade orchid bark, coco coir or cypress mulch are the preferred substrates for the enclosure.
Make sure your paint is pet-safe. You need a waterproof lining or the wood will rot.
Tortoise bullying can be very subtle, 'snuggling', 'sharing' the same food, sleeping together, competition for the basking spot, following each other. They should not be kept in pairs, it will all end in tears.
Sorry, but we only want the tortoises to be happy and healthy.

 

[Kieran Marshall]

thank you. I have emptied the sand into my son's sandpit and thats where it will now stay. I am going to buy the coco coir substrate and mix it prob 50-50 ratio with the topsoil so this should be ok.

Being in the UK the tortoises will spend a lot of time in the table so have brought a highly recommended combined UV basking solution. I have a 100 watt mega ray combined UV basking bulb which is inside a dome reflector for accurate heat and light distribution and also to keep the UV light angled in a safe manor so human eyes or tortoise eyes are able to look directly at the UV. The instructions say to have it between 12 and 16 inches raised from the basking area , would you agree with this ratio and what is the desired and safest temperature that should be hitting the tortoise?

As they are so tiny at present I will keep them together but think I will buy another table at 40 inches and mount them one above the other to separate them soon based on your advice so thank you .

The paint is toxic free and also is not on the insides just a display feature on the outside so this is all good

 

[Kieran Marshall]

correction : human or tortoise eyes "CANNOT"

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

The mega ray is pretty much the same type of bulb that I use during my short winter, an MVB, (mercury vapour bulb). I like them, but some find they dry the tortoises out (I haven't had this problem, just reporting what others say) and use a tube UVB and separate basking bulb. However, the MVB bulb is only fully effective when pointing straight down, and it's lifespan is reduced if at an angle.I agree with the instructions on the box regarding distance)), but measure the temps with a laser thermometer and raise or lower the lamp as necessary within the safety parameters.
The basking spot should be 95 to 100 degrees F.
The other problem is that the MVBs often become ineffective after a few months, don't produce the correct UVB and although they look the same, need replacing. I replace mine yearly, but i only use it for a few months.

 

[Kieran Marshall]

OK thats great thank you for your time. i have some things to do now ready for tomorrow evening which includes buying waterproof pond liner and buying the coco coir but will post a picture when they are settled in so you can see the setup. Also thinking of buying some slate for them to climb on as well as some artificial plants too merely for shady and hiding areas.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

OK thats great thank you for your time. i have some things to do now ready for tomorrow evening which includes buying waterproof pond liner and buying the coco coir but will post a picture when they are settled in so you can see the setup. Also thinking of buying some slate for them to climb on as well as some artificial plants too merely for shady and hiding areas.

Yup, I use a bit of slate or tile for putting the food on it may help keep the beak trimmed, climbing on it likewise helps with their nails. I use spider plants, they are resilient and not eaten much, though they do get trampled, but of course you can't use those from garden centres. Artificial plants are good and work for many, but keep a watch that the torts don't start to acquire a taste for them.

 

[Kieran Marshall]

Hi guys, just doing the waterproof lining but wondered should i put my substrate (Top soil chemical free and coco coir mixed) in the housing compartment and the middle compartment too?

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi guys, just doing the waterproof lining but wondered should i put my substrate (Top soil chemical free and coco coir mixed) in the housing compartment and the middle compartment too?

View attachment 215860

Hi, and welcome !

That looks very small for two tortoises. And moisture will seep through the edge of the plastic. It should have been folded up the wall a bit.

 

[Kieran Marshall]

Hi, and welcome !

That looks very small for two tortoises. And moisture will seep through the edge of the plastic. It should have been folded up the wall a bit.

Camera angle is quite deceiving and they are tiny just short of a year old. As they are older I will look to build them something more suited but hoping this will last a few years.

would you put the substrate in all the compartments or just the bottom?

 

[Kieran Marshall]

Hi, and welcome !

That looks very small for two tortoises. And moisture will seep through the edge of the plastic. It should have been folded up the wall a bit.

I have redone done the pond liner so that its 2 inches up the sides - thanks for the heads up!!

 

[threeboxerlover]

I would put it in all compartments so they can walk easier and also burrow wherever they choose. Also, maybe try to block the side of the stairs so they can't fall off. My older Hermanns, Frank, has ended up on his back from trying to climb things and falling off!! He fancies himself a gymnast so we've had to really be careful with anything that he can tip over, fall in or off!

 

[Kieran Marshall]

All in and happy. Moving around well climbing eating and one has now gone to bed we are watching the other. Yet to be named by our eldest son as they are his birthday present!

 

[Eduardo Hernandez]

It looks like there's a size difference? Please be very careful, if one seems more shy or is less active than the other one it could mean there's bullying going on.

It also looks like they're a but pyramided? It could just be the picture though...

 

[Kieran Marshall]

there is a slight Pyramid texture to shell although was wondering if that was growing as they are only a year old. What would you recommend to keep her from getting any worse if it indeed is starting to pyramid? keeping them on known weeds and lambs lettuce as a treat and a calcium supplement but if any other suggestions. also having the heat UV lamp on its reaching 92 degrees which i assume is just about right?