Ploughshare

[enchilada]

1
this is what asians are achieving while our "scoff laws " trying to ban everything

 

[KevinGG]

Removing animals from the wild would of course be detrimental to the wild population, but it may soon be the only way to ensure that the animals survive in some numbers in organized breeding colonies from which CB specimens could be used to repopulate the original range of the wild population if it can ever be protected adequately.

Protecting wild populations and their habitats is a big problem in these economically challenged countries. There are generally few enforcement officers who are usually very poorly paid, making it easy to bribe them to look the other way or even turning them into poachers and smugglers themselves in their efforts to feed their families.

The Burmese Star Tortoise is an example of the same exploitation and is probably a harbinger of what will happen to A. yniphora. The wild population of Burmese Stars was far larger than that of the Ploughshare Tortoise, but they were systematically collected and smuggled out of the country for years and have now been declared functionally extinct in the wild due to the same pressures which exist in Madagascar for the Ploughshare Tortoise. There are now two or three government backed breeding facilities in Burma (Myanmar) which are raising CB animals to be released back into wild areas after the local population has been thoroughly educated on the need for the animals to be protected and cherished as a national treasure. This is not easy however, in a country where the annual per capita income is roughly $50 USD and a smuggler will pay $6-8 per tortoise or turtle.

In 1999 I worked with a team from the Wildlife Conservation Society (Bronx Zoo) in Burma to set up and train the staff of a breeding facility for Burmese Stars in a wildlife sanctuary in the middle of the natural range. While there, I saw extensive areas of the wildlife sanctuary being clear cut by huge machinery which had been airlifted into the forest to create sesame fields (permission for this was given by the military governor who controlled that area, probably the result of a bribe). Then, after we returned to the US, we learned that the director of the wildlife sanctuary housing the breeding center we had set up was periodically selling the adult Burmese Stars we had placed in the center to smugglers to raise extra money for himself.

So I would venture to say that the problem has no easy solution. If the Ploughshare Tortoises are simply left in the wild, they will ultimately disappear. Having a single breeding facility is not a safe way to preserve a species. Protecting the wild population is a great idea in theory, but ultimately not really possible or feasible in actual practice, at least not in today's world. Perhaps in the future it will be, but by then will there still be any wild population to protect?

I believe there is a need to set up two or three more breeding colonies and sooner rather than later. If the necessary animals were removed from the wild for that purpose, would that not be better than watching them disappear piecemeal until there are no more in the wild as is happening now and as has happened in Myanmar with their beautiful Burmese Star Tortoise? It's the proverbial "sticky wicket" question.

Sticky wicket indeed. I appreciate your comments on the human aspect of this. We'll always have animal problems as long as we have human problems. The two aren't separate.

That's the tough question. When to decide saving the animal from extinction is more important than saving the wild population. Interesting to hear everybody's point of view. I love getting into the grey of things. It would be interesting to hear which way the Turtle Conservancy leans on this. Especially since they have played such a big role with ploughshares. Also curious to see data they have on success of their carapace etching program.

 

[KevinGG]

In support of this Tom, a little data analysis of the most recently produced studbook for radiata. It shows that in the past, AZA facilities were a player in the production of radiata hatchlings, but in the last 10 years, that has solidly swung in favor of private breeders. There is no justification for an AZA facility to produce large numbers of hatchlings. Reintroduction to the wild is not generally an option, and selling the hatchlings for profit is generally not allowed for an AZA Facility (or at least frowned upon). The only driver for large scale hatchling production lies within private breeders.

Radiata hatchlings produced from 1996 to 2006

AZA Facility: 304
Private Breeders: 301

Radiata hatchlings produced from 2006 to 2016

AZA Facility: 88
Private Breeders: 968

Dan

Not sure if these are only studbooked animals or not. If not, I know the AZA numbers are way off. Behler alone has produced 50-75 radiata a year for last 5-6 years.

You're right, Behler is one of the very rare exceptions that sells their surplus animals. Don't think it's a popular option however, as purchasing one comes with a whole bunch of conditions.

 

[KevinGG]

I can't disagree on any of your points, but I would like to point out that of the dozens of radiata breeders that I know personally, not a one of them is involved with stud booked animals. There is no way to get numbers, but based on what I see, there are probably at least 10 times that amount being produced "off the books". Probably more than 10 times that amount. And that is just in the small circle of people that I know.

HEY! While we are on the subject, I need an adult male radiata. Prefer to find one in CA, but I know of several CBW holders that will help out if need be. A vet friend of mine was just given 3 gorgeous adult females. I'm building a night box for them now. If anyone reading has any leads, I would much appreciate the help.

Saw an adult male on Fauna the other day. From NY. Think they were asking 3k.

 

[KevinGG]

To be clear, I am not advocating poaching. More so, I am complaining about stupid government bureaucracy that does far more harm than good. Its rampant all over the planet and its contributing to the death and extinction of precious wildlife everywhere. Bill and Will have infinitely more experience than I do with wild tortoises in the wild, and they've spelled out what I was trying to say very well. I'm saying that in some cases the activities of people who love a species and work to save it in spite of the laws, are the real heroes.

As has been pointed out, whether any of us like it or not, economics play an enormous role in whether or not a species survives, both in the wild and captivity. It has to be more profitable to keep species alive and in the wild if you want the natives on your side. Like wise, if we want ex-situ assurance colonies to thrive, we need to be "allowed" by the various governments involved to move captive bred specimens around the country and around the globe, and even {…gasp… horror of horrors….} turn a profit doing so. That one island in the Seychelles could meet the entire worldwide demand for radiata and aldabra tortoises, if the governments would simply allow him to sell the CB babies and ship them around the globe. Think of the pressure this would take off of wild tortoises. If you could easily and cheaply get the animal you wanted from a reliable, legal, CB source, there would be no market for parasite ridden, roughly handled possibly poached WC imports.

Obviously, we need to do everything possible to protect wild tortoises and their habitats, but there is no denying the utility of assurance colonies as a tool for saving any species. There is also no denying that private individuals, often motivated by both profit and profound love of the species, are far more successful at propagating a species than any AZA facility or government run facility. In fact the government has been nearly a universal failure at it. In the cases where AZA facilities succeed, without exception, the success can be traced back to a private individual that helped in some way or other. I don't have the knowledge, experience or ability to do anything about habitat destruction in foreign countries at this time in my life, but I most definitely have the ability to raise and propagate rare tortoise species that are in need of help, if only I could get my hands on them...

Thanks for clearing up. This reads much better. I'm realizing how sensitive I am to all of this stuff. Interesting to see what role insecurity plays in even the smallest aspects of life.

I think the hard part with private individuals is, what would qualify those individuals chosen? I have to imagine that process turns into an accrediting organization similar to the AZA.

 

[KevinGG]

Its the above part that is key in this discussion from my POV. Give people a good reason, and every species will be saved. Implementing this can be tricky, but we have many many examples of past success to draw from. The alligator in Louisiana is a good one. Peregrin falcons are another. The previously mentioned Burmese Star tortoise (Near and dear to my heart. See my avatar…) is a good example of the success that can be had if the government just stays out of it and lets people do what people do. I chose to work with platynota over radiata primarily because of the lack of regulation.

I'd agree with this in terms of captive bred animals.

I think it's clear that people left to their own judgement on how to remove animals from the wild will always decimate the populations. Look at what's currently happening in Louisiana.

Don't think you were suggesting people should be given free reign of wild populations, just thought it should be mentioned.

 

[Gillian M]

1
this is what asians are achieving while our "scoff laws " trying to ban everything

Very nice pics! Thanks for posting.

 

[Tom]

I think it's clear that people left to their own judgement on how to remove animals from the wild will always decimate the populations. Look at what's currently happening in Louisiana.

What is happening in LA? I'm familiar with the overwhelming success of their alligator efforts, but to what are you referring?

You are correct. I'm not advocating that people be allowed to freely remove animals from the wild. I'm advocating that people be able to establish assurance colonies, breed the heck out of their animals and sell the CB offspring freely. Especially where non-native animals that were imported long ago are concerned like the species that are mentioned in the OP of this very thread.

 

[KevinGG]

What is happening in LA? I'm familiar with the overwhelming success of their alligator efforts, but to what are you referring?

You are correct. I'm not advocating that people be allowed to freely remove animals from the wild. I'm advocating that people be able to establish assurance colonies, breed the heck out of their animals and sell the CB offspring freely. Especially where non-native animals that were imported long ago are concerned like the species that are mentioned in the OP of this very thread.

Guess I shouldn't have picked another controversial issue as my evidence. Louisiana allows unlimited removal of turtles, except for a few protected species, to those who buy a license. We know that millions of LA turtles (I think most recent was close to 16 million coming through NOLA) have been sold to china in last few years. They haven't monitored the amount of animals being removed. This means millions of turtles could have been removed from the wild without regulation. The controversial part is LA didn't distinguish between farmed and wild exports. So we don't know how many were removed vs farmed.

Bad example, but hopefully a point was made.

 

[Tom]

Guess I shouldn't have picked another controversial issue as my evidence. Louisiana allows unlimited removal of turtles, except for a few protected species, to those who buy a license. We know that millions of LA turtles (I think most recent was close to 16 million coming through NOLA) have been sold to china in last few years. They haven't monitored the amount of animals being removed. This means millions of turtles could have been removed from the wild without regulation. The controversial part is LA didn't distinguish between farmed and wild exports. So we don't know how many were removed vs farmed.

Bad example, but hopefully a point was made.

I don't see why that is a bad example. Stripping the wild of any species benefits no one.

The problems is that cutting off al commerce in any species is nearly a guarantee that the wild will be stripped of any given species. Allowing commerce in CB animals nearly guarantees that wild animals will be left alone, or at least stand a much greater chance of being left alone. If there is a demand for any product, that demand will be met. If that demand can't be met legally, it will be met illegally and there are people willing to do anything, no matter how vile, disgusting, dangerous, or illegal, to make that buck. What I'm advocating is allowing legal commerce in these CB animals with minimal governmental interference, regulation and restriction. Let the guy in the Seychelles sell his baby radiata.

What I advocate will not stop the onslaught of human destruction of natural areas, but it will remove any incentive to illegally poach for the food and pet markets.

 

[KevinGG]

I don't see why that is a bad example. Stripping the wild of any species benefits no one.

The problems is that cutting off al commerce in any species is nearly a guarantee that the wild will be stripped of any given species. Allowing commerce in CB animals nearly guarantees that wild animals will be left alone, or at least stand a much greater chance of being left alone. If there is a demand for any product, that demand will be met. If that demand can't be met legally, it will be met illegally and there are people willing to do anything, no matter how vile, disgusting, dangerous, or illegal, to make that buck. What I'm advocating is allowing legal commerce in these CB animals with minimal governmental interference, regulation and restriction. Let the guy in the Seychelles sell his baby radiata.

What I advocate will not stop the onslaught of human destruction of natural areas, but it will remove any incentive to illegally poach for the food and pet markets.

Well said. Really enjoy this dialogue.

 

[mark1]

I don't see why that is a bad example. Stripping the wild of any species benefits no one.

The problems is that cutting off al commerce in any species is nearly a guarantee that the wild will be stripped of any given species. Allowing commerce in CB animals nearly guarantees that wild animals will be left alone, or at least stand a much greater chance of being left alone.

not disagreeing with your basic argument about allowing the private breeding of endangered species possibly could help or slow down extinction .... my only experience with poaching would be with turtles native to my area ,north American wood turtles are easily captive produced , there are private breeding groups all over the country , i'm sure the world . their sale is unrestricted in probably 40 states , they're protected in every state they occur .... I know of entire wild populations completely wiped out in one year .... just recently a guy some here may have dealt with was busted selling wild caught Pennsylvania na wood turtles , at least a hundred best I could remember , and that was within one year ....you can bet that wiped out a population or two ............ the same for blanding's , and eastern box turtles in ohio and pa ......... i'm not sure what would stop poaching , but it doesn't appear to me to be legally produced animals ...... I've lived on the same river all my life , been there more times than not in any given week for 50yrs , the other day I was down there with the dogs , thinking how well the fish , mammals and birds are doing , but the turtle population is decimated , I have no doubt it's from collection , when I was a kid we collected our share ............the only thing I've seen save wild turtle populations is isolation

 

[kingsley]

My greatest concern is the encroachment of civilization in to the species habitat , along with comes farming and agriculture and weed-sides and pesticides that permeates in to the food chain that can decimate populations in a matter decades!!! I am seeing this first hand in Sri Lanka with the Star tortoises. In most cases the authorities are behind the 8th ball!!!

I am for setting up assurance colonies , but to achieve this in a third world country is an challenge by it self. The constant cahnge of the political land scape , corruption , will never end and special projects suffer. Thats why a NGO (none Government Organization) is a good option.

The private sector always suffers due to the lack of accreditation , that I am aware is a HOT BUTTON topic!!! LOL, That being said the the accredited facilities are wery quick to snub our back yard operations!! Take a look at the Radiata studbook, who registered more off spring???

 

[Tom]

The private sector always suffers due to the lack of accreditation , that I am aware is a HOT BUTTON topic!!! LOL, That being said the the accredited facilities are wery quick to snub our back yard operations!! Take a look at the Radiata studbook, who registered more off spring???

The above quoted info rings very true. This needs to stop. The TTPG is working to bring these two groups together and get rid of the adversarial relationship for the benefit of the species involved. The simple fact of the matter is that a self-funded private backyard breeder will always be able to outperform a giant accredited facility with all of their committees, bureaucracy, and red tape. The accredited facilities on the other hand, can open doors and get stuff that private hobbyists cannot. Working together as a team, these two groups could form an un-defeatable strategy and partnership. Working against each other mires down the while process.

 

[kingsley]

Yes I was at the 2016 TTPG round table discussion on Galapagos Tortoise Just 6 weeks ago, and was very pleased and encouraged by the advise and support of Colette Adams, (Gladys Porter Zoo) but was rather dissapointed as the rest of nthe invitees including the USFWS was a no show.

 

[skottip]

OK, Back to the Ploughshares.. All I want is 2 I wonder if I am mostly fascinated by them because I cant have them? Something about those big domes..