Ploughshare

[Big Ol Tortoise]

Due to being solid on the Chinese market there's not many ploughshares is the wild. I feel like these tortoise along with the radiated could use more attention from the media. but how do you guys manage to obtain these very rare and beautiful tortoises.
I'm not interested in buying one just very curious and thanks to the people who do have them for keeping them alive!

 

[KevinGG]

Due to being solid on the Chinese market there's not many ploughshares is the wild. I feel like these tortoise along with the radiated could use more attention from the media. but how do you guys manage to obtain these very rare and beautiful tortoises.
I'm not interested in buying one just very curious and thanks to the people who do have them for keeping them alive!

No one in the US has them except for a handful of zoos and institutions. The truth is, other than for fundraising, media coverage wouldn't help this species as the problem lies overseas. The few people on this forum who do own these guys live in those areas. The Turtle Conservancy keeps them and has a few videos on them, including a segment on 60 Minutes where they show how they etch into the shells to prevent poaching.

 

[Big Ol Tortoise]

No one in the US has them except for a handful of zoos and institutions. The truth is, other than for fundraising, media coverage wouldn't help this species as the problem lies overseas. The few people on this forum who do own these guys live in those areas. The Turtle Conservancy keeps them and has a few videos on them, including a segment on 60 Minutes where they show how they etch into the shells to prevent poaching.

Yep I've watched that 60 minutes many times. Breaks my heart but I'm happy to see people out there trying to save them.

 

[Tom]

Radiata are not nearly as endangered as we've all been led to believe. In fact, they aren't endangered at all. Last estimate was 6.5 million left in the wild, and I'd guess there are 10's of thousands of them breeding in captivity around the world. There is one island in the Seychelles that literally has thousands of adults and thousands more hatch every year, but because of ridiculous laws, they aren't allowed to move any CB animals off off this island that they are not native to.

The problem for ploughshares goes well beyond the Chinese markets. Lucky for the world, some of the people who "poached" or "smuggled" some of this species are now successfully breeding them. CB babies have been seen for sale in several parts of the world to date, and many more are expected soon. These "scoff-laws" have succeeded in saving this species from total extinction, despite governments around the world trying hard to stop them. Anyone who likes the species and ever wants to see a live one should thank these profiteering law breakers. If the law had been followed, they would be all but extinct. It remains exceedingly difficult to move them.

 

[KevinGG]

Radiata are not nearly as endangered as we've all been led to believe. In fact, they aren't endangered at all. Last estimate was 6.5 million left in the wild, and I'd guess there are 10's of thousands of them breeding in captivity around the world. There is one island in the Seychelles that literally has thousands of adults and thousands more hatch every year, but because of ridiculous laws, they aren't allowed to move any CB animals off off this island that they are not native to.

The problem for ploughshares goes well beyond the Chinese markets. Lucky for the world, some of the people who "poached" or "smuggled" some of this species are now successfully breeding them. CB babies have been seen for sale in several parts of the world to date, and many more are expected soon. These "scoff-laws" have succeeded in saving this species from total extinction, despite governments around the world trying hard to stop them. Anyone who likes the species and ever wants to see a live one should thank these profiteering law breakers. If the law had been followed, they would be all but extinct. It remains exceedingly difficult to move them.

Funny. Didn't even see radiata in the original post. Just look around tortoise classifieds and you'll be able to find them for about $1000.

Tom, Here is the latest IUCN assessment, "Generation time is considered as 42 years; the assessment is carried out by considering documented impacts over a period encompassing less than two past generations (67 years) and anticipated impacts on the next generation (next 33 years) for a maximum assessment period of 100 years. Available information indicates that the species has disappeared entirely from about 40% of its past range through a combination of habitat loss and exploitation, and that remaining populations have been severely depleted by recent and ongoing exploitation predominantly for domestic consumption; an overall population reduction of 80% over two past and one future generation is a conservative estimate, thus qualifying as Critically Endangered under criterion A4d. Population modelling indicates collapse and extinction in a period of on average 45 years into the future, thus meeting Critically Endangered under criterion E. Habitat loss rates approach or exceed 80% over the three generation period, thus A4c may also be met."

My understanding is that, now, the population has declined by 50% in last 15 years. This means population could be wiped out in another generation. The status is more a reflection of that than the number of individuals left.

Disagree with your idea that poachers are to thank for keeping ploughshares from going extinct. I'd think most arguments would be the opposite?Captive breeding programs have been successful at breeding these guys. Your argument that poachers are to thank for those who would ever like to keep or see the species seems more accurate.

 

[Tom]

Funny. Didn't even see radiata in the original post.

I feel like these tortoise along with the radiated could use more attention from the media.

Just look around tortoise classifieds and you'll be able to find them for about $1000.

I'm aware of the availability and price of radiata babies. I'm not sure what your point is though. Are you using this info to agree or disagree with something in my post?

Tom, Here is the latest IUCN assessment, "Generation time is considered as 42 years; the assessment is carried out by considering documented impacts over a period encompassing less than two past generations (67 years) and anticipated impacts on the next generation (next 33 years) for a maximum assessment period of 100 years. Available information indicates that the species has disappeared entirely from about 40% of its past range through a combination of habitat loss and exploitation, and that remaining populations have been severely depleted by recent and ongoing exploitation predominantly for domestic consumption; an overall population reduction of 80% over two past and one future generation is a conservative estimate, thus qualifying as Critically Endangered under criterion A4d. Population modelling indicates collapse and extinction in a period of on average 45 years into the future, thus meeting Critically Endangered under criterion E. Habitat loss rates approach or exceed 80% over the three generation period, thus A4c may also be met."

At last years TTPG conference we received a presentation on the status of wild radiata. The old population density numbers from the 70's are wrong and were based on faulty population assessment technique. I thoroughly explained this in another thread a few months ago, but suffice to say that the problem was, and continues to be, greatly over exaggerated.

My understanding is that, now, the population has declined by 50% in last 15 years. This means population could be wiped out in another generation. The status is more a reflection of that than the number of individuals left.

According to the speaker whose spent the last 20 years going to Madagascar and studying this species, your understanding is incorrect. Mine was too, until the speaker corrected my ignorance.

Disagree with your idea that poachers are to thank for keeping ploughshares from going extinct. I'd think most arguments would be the opposite?Captive breeding programs have been successful at breeding these guys. Your argument that poachers are to thank for those who would ever like to keep or see the species seems more accurate.

I know that most arguments are the opposite and that is the reason for me stating it. Government bans and restrictive laws on commerce are a sure fire way to end a species. Allowing humans to make a profit from a species is a sure fire way to save a species. There are countless examples of this. I'm half way through a book called "The Invisible Ark", by Dave and Tracy Barker that illustrates these points far better than I can. I encourage anyone who likes animals to read it. It certainly goes against the common grain, and makes a heck of a lot of sense in doing so.

If left to government breeding programs and banned from public hands, the ploughshare will surely go extinct. If private breeders are allowed to freely trade in the species, it will be propagated extensively and will never see extinction.

I'm interested in conversing more about the subject, so please, lets discuss this more. Share your thoughts?

 

[KevinGG]

I'm aware of the availability and price of radiata babies. I'm not sure what your point is though. Are you using this info to agree or disagree with something in my post?



At last years TTPG conference we received a presentation on the status of wild radiata. The old population density numbers from the 70's are wrong and were based on faulty population assessment technique. I thoroughly explained this in another thread a few months ago, but suffice to say that the problem was, and continues to be, greatly over exaggerated.



According to the speaker whose spent the last 20 years going to Madagascar and studying this species, your understanding is incorrect. Mine was too, until the speaker corrected my ignorance.



I know that most arguments are the opposite and that is the reason for me stating it. Government bans and restrictive laws on commerce are a sure fire way to end a species. Allowing humans to make a profit from a species is a sure fire way to save a species. There are countless examples of this. I'm half way through a book called "The Invisible Ark", by Dave and Tracy Barker that illustrates these points far better than I can. I encourage anyone who likes animals to read it. It certainly goes against the common grain, and makes a heck of a lot of sense in doing so.

If left to government breeding programs and banned from public hands, the ploughshare will surely go extinct. If private breeders are allowed to freely trade in the species, it will be propagated extensively and will never see extinction.

I'm interested in conversing more about the subject, so please, lets discuss this more. Share your thoughts?

Price and availability was for OP.

You haven't left me much room to debate you. I don't know who the speaker is. I'd love to find his presentation or writings if you have his/her name. Regardless, I know of several people who have spent time in Madagascar with the opposite information. Here's an excerpt from a 2011 TSA post citing Ryan Walker of Nautilus Ecology who was doing field studies in southern Madagascar, "Ryan admitted that he has not fully appreciated the extent of the crisis until he began looking at populations in the east, closer to Ft. Dauphin, a major center of tortoise consumption. He describes the work of well organized bands of poachers who are dropped off in an area and then very efficiently clean out the tortoises. In Ryan’s words, we are witnessing the “systematic extermination of the radiated tortoise across its range” and he predicts that soon we could find ourselves trying to protect small populations of tortoises such as we are currently forced to do in the northwest with ploughshare tortoises. He believes that our prediction last year of 20 years to extinction may be a “bit generous.”". Also, the IUCN assessment is from 2008, not the 70s. Or is the point being that the assessment teams in the 70s over-assessed how many radiata were left, hence the decline would be less significant than their assesment would suggest?

I'm fascinated by your point of view on this. I disagree completely, but fascinated nonetheless. Allowing humans to profit from taking animals from the wild and reselling them is a sure fire way to save an animal from extinction by placing them all in captivity. It's also a sure fire way to make animals go extinct in the wild. What you disregard with your statements is that poaching has been the major threat to this species for, at least, the last few years. The activity you are praising for saving the species also has been decimating wild numbers. I don't know how you can say captive breeding plans would render extinction. They've been successful. Certain ones at least. Their process of removing animals from the wild is, obviously, less stressful to the wild populations. They ensure animals are placed in the hands of people who, at the very least, understand their requirements. Who knows how many poached animals die while being transported and awaiting buyers. And how many more are sold to incompetent buyers?

The bigger problem, in my opinion, is that just as the government hasn't properly cared for this tortoise, it hasn't cared for the people. This isn't unique to Madagascar. It happens in every country, including ours. We only care about this one because those forgotten people are about to make their tortoise go extinct in the wild.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

A facebook post from TTPG (August 11 2015), Think about this. Sorta compels one to consider the consequences of noble inaction. Will

TURTLE and TORTOISE PRESERVATION GROUP shared IUCN Red List of Threatened Species's photo.
August 11, 2015 ·
This species was "protected to death" by Costa Rica and they should be ashamed. Many zoos and private hobbyists inquired for years about taking a small population of Golden toads out of Costa Rica to build assurance colonies. Costa Rica refused and within a short span of time, they were all gone. I believe that there are many other species that would thrive in captive colonies and whose healthy, parasite-free, captive-produced offspring could one day be used to repopulate wild areas if we somehow manage to protect some of the wild places left on the planet.



IUCN Red List of Threatened Species
August 11, 2015 ·
This week's #AmazingSpecies, the Golden Toad, is sadly classified as Extinct. Known only from a single reserve in Costa Rica, the species disappeared quite sudd...

 

[KevinGG]

A facebook post from TTPG (August 11 2015), Think about this. Sorta compels one to consider the consequences of noble inaction. Will

TURTLE and TORTOISE PRESERVATION GROUP shared IUCN Red List of Threatened Species's photo.
August 11, 2015 ·
This species was "protected to death" by Costa Rica and they should be ashamed. Many zoos and private hobbyists inquired for years about taking a small population of Golden toads out of Costa Rica to build assurance colonies. Costa Rica refused and within a short span of time, they were all gone. I believe that there are many other species that would thrive in captive colonies and whose healthy, parasite-free, captive-produced offspring could one day be used to repopulate wild areas if we somehow manage to protect some of the wild places left on the planet.



IUCN Red List of Threatened Species
August 11, 2015 ·
This week's #AmazingSpecies, the Golden Toad, is sadly classified as Extinct. Known only from a single reserve in Costa Rica, the species disappeared quite sudd...

Thanks Will. This is where the tortoises and the toad deviate though. Costa Rica wouldn't allow any animals to leave and apparently weren't successful in any captive breeding efforts. In the case of the Madagascan tortoises, there are captive breeding facilities that are successful and these tortoises are in other parts of the world. Can't remember what zoos have the ploughshares here.

The other difference is that there still are wild populations of these guys. And poaching is the most serious threat to their population. So, apart from we would like to own one some day, I can't see how poaching is a good thing in this case. The hierarchy of zoos and governments is a different conversation, I think.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Thanks Will. This is where the tortoises and the toad deviate though. Costa Rica wouldn't allow any animals to leave and apparently weren't successful in any captive breeding efforts. In the case of the Madagascan tortoises, there are captive breeding facilities that are successful and these tortoises are in other parts of the world. Can't remember what zoos have the ploughshares here.

The other difference is that there still are wild populations of these guys. And poaching is the most serious threat to their population. So, apart from we would like to own one some day, I can't see how poaching is a good thing in this case. The hierarchy of zoos and governments is a different conversation, I think.

The dealio, Madagascar has not let any out since sometime in the 1950's/1960's. A couple at Jersey Zoo, maybe one or two others. Back then they were let out as pets for super off center collectors, no laws for the most part, just too much trouble I guess. Those in zoo's today have been legalized by authorities who captured poached animals and turned them over. That is to say, they are all illegal less one or two individual animals.

So, none of those 'assurance colonies' would exists without poachers. A reliable controlled export would ease much of that, and yes that is my speculation.

 

[KevinGG]

The dealio, Madagascar has not let any out since sometime in the 1950's/1960's. A couple at Jersey Zoo, maybe one or two others. Back then they were let out as pets for super off center collectors, no laws for the most part, just too much trouble I guess. Those in zoo's today have been legalized by authorities who captured poached animals and turned them over. That is to say, they are all illegal less one or two individual animals.

So, none of those 'assurance colonies' would exists without poachers. A reliable controlled export would ease much of that, and yes that is my speculation.

I see. That makes sense. My point was just that there is a lot of grey. If we're going to recognize the help poaching has in preventing extinction, we should recognize the role it plays in threatening extinction.

Anyways, thinking of the present situation, the exporting of wild torts wouldn't really be necessary anymore, right? Colonies have been set up. I'd think the main concern today would be how to keep wild population in the wild (i.e., protect from poaching). What do you think?

 

[zovick]

To my knowledge (and I worked with this species from 1975 to 2011) the only fully legal and successful captive breeding population of A. yniphora is located in Madagascar. There have been a fairly large number of animals stolen directly from that Ampijoroa breeding center more than once. So it seems simply foolhardy to leave that spot as the only true breeding center for such a rare species in the event of even more successful thefts and/or a disease outbreak. There is one fellow in Borneo who has produced over 100 babies from adults he got on the black market. He posts frequently on this forum.

There are three adults (1.2) plus about 18 juveniles at the Behler Center in CA, but no offspring have been produced thus far. I did see that a zoo in Japan had hatched one this year or last, but I am not certain that was not from an egg produced by a recently confiscated animal, so whether that one was "captive bred" from a male and female held at that zoo for a time sufficient for breeding them there is unknown to me.

Both ZooAtlanta and ZooKnoxville have 4 specimens each, but their animals are all juveniles and are a good number of years away from adulthood and successful breeding. All but one of the above noted animals at the three US institutions were obtained via confiscations.

It would really not hurt to have more animals in this country for breeding in assurance colonies whether they were confiscated in origin or sent here willingly by the Madagascan government (not very likely). We started the Radiated Tortoise SSP with about 75 animals in 1984-85, and now, just 32 years later, there are very close to 2500 tortoises in the studbook and many more have been produced that were not entered into the studbook for various reasons.

 

[KevinGG]

To my knowledge (and I worked with this species from 1975 to 2011) the only fully legal and successful captive breeding population of A. yniphora is located in Madagascar. There have been a fairly large number of animals stolen directly from that Ampijoroa breeding center more than once. So it seems simply foolhardy to leave that spot as the only true breeding center for such a rare species in the event of even more successful thefts and/or a disease outbreak. There is one fellow in Borneo who has produced over 100 babies from adults he got on the black market. He posts frequently on this forum.

There are three adults (1.2) plus about 18 juveniles at the Behler Center in CA, but no offspring have been produced thus far. I did see that a zoo in Japan had hatched one this year or last, but I am not certain that was not from an egg produced by a recently confiscated animal, so whether that one was "captive bred" from a male and female held at that zoo for a time sufficient for breeding them there is unknown to me.

Both ZooAtlanta and ZooKnoxville have 4 specimens each, but their animals are all juveniles and are a good number of years away from adulthood and successful breeding. All but one of the above noted animals at the three US institutions were obtained via confiscations.

It would really not hurt to have more animals in this country for breeding in assurance colonies whether they were confiscated in origin or sent here willingly by the Madagascan government (not very likely). We started the Radiated Tortoise SSP with about 75 animals in 1984-85, and now, just 32 years later, there are very close to 2500 tortoises in the studbook and many more have been produced that were not entered into the studbook for various reasons.

Thanks for info. Only could remember Behler as I interned there for a little while. I guess I was basing my "colonies" comment on that one facility in Madagascar.

Removing animals would hurt the wild population, right? I'm sure you know how low their numbers are. But, I understand how the numbers could mean that more animals should be put into captivity. I can really see both sides of this. Obviously, I lean toward concentrated effort on protecting wild population in this case. I'm guessing this is a popular debate in the scientific community.

 

[zovick]

Thanks for info. Only could remember Behler as I interned there for a little while. I guess I was basing my "colonies" comment on that one facility in Madagascar.

Removing animals would hurt the wild population, right? I'm sure you know how low their numbers are. But, I understand how the numbers could mean that more animals should be put into captivity. I can really see both sides of this. Obviously, I lean toward concentrated effort on protecting wild population in this case. I'm guessing this is a popular debate in the scientific community.

Removing animals from the wild would of course be detrimental to the wild population, but it may soon be the only way to ensure that the animals survive in some numbers in organized breeding colonies from which CB specimens could be used to repopulate the original range of the wild population if it can ever be protected adequately.

Protecting wild populations and their habitats is a big problem in these economically challenged countries. There are generally few enforcement officers who are usually very poorly paid, making it easy to bribe them to look the other way or even turning them into poachers and smugglers themselves in their efforts to feed their families.

The Burmese Star Tortoise is an example of the same exploitation and is probably a harbinger of what will happen to A. yniphora. The wild population of Burmese Stars was far larger than that of the Ploughshare Tortoise, but they were systematically collected and smuggled out of the country for years and have now been declared functionally extinct in the wild due to the same pressures which exist in Madagascar for the Ploughshare Tortoise. There are now two or three government backed breeding facilities in Burma (Myanmar) which are raising CB animals to be released back into wild areas after the local population has been thoroughly educated on the need for the animals to be protected and cherished as a national treasure. This is not easy however, in a country where the annual per capita income is roughly $50 USD and a smuggler will pay $6-8 per tortoise or turtle.

In 1999 I worked with a team from the Wildlife Conservation Society (Bronx Zoo) in Burma to set up and train the staff of a breeding facility for Burmese Stars in a wildlife sanctuary in the middle of the natural range. While there, I saw extensive areas of the wildlife sanctuary being clear cut by huge machinery which had been airlifted into the forest to create sesame fields (permission for this was given by the military governor who controlled that area, probably the result of a bribe). Then, after we returned to the US, we learned that the director of the wildlife sanctuary housing the breeding center we had set up was periodically selling the adult Burmese Stars we had placed in the center to smugglers to raise extra money for himself.

So I would venture to say that the problem has no easy solution. If the Ploughshare Tortoises are simply left in the wild, they will ultimately disappear. Having a single breeding facility is not a safe way to preserve a species. Protecting the wild population is a great idea in theory, but ultimately not really possible or feasible in actual practice, at least not in today's world. Perhaps in the future it will be, but by then will there still be any wild population to protect?

I believe there is a need to set up two or three more breeding colonies and sooner rather than later. If the necessary animals were removed from the wild for that purpose, would that not be better than watching them disappear piecemeal until there are no more in the wild as is happening now and as has happened in Myanmar with their beautiful Burmese Star Tortoise? It's the proverbial "sticky wicket" question.

 

[Sterant]

For those interested in learning more about the 1999 trip to Burma Bill speaks of:

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/behindscenes.htm

 

[Tom]

You haven't left me much room to debate you. I don't know who the speaker is. I'd love to find his presentation or writings if you have his/her name.

To be clear, I am not advocating poaching. More so, I am complaining about stupid government bureaucracy that does far more harm than good. Its rampant all over the planet and its contributing to the death and extinction of precious wildlife everywhere. Bill and Will have infinitely more experience than I do with wild tortoises in the wild, and they've spelled out what I was trying to say very well. I'm saying that in some cases the activities of people who love a species and work to save it in spite of the laws, are the real heroes.

As has been pointed out, whether any of us like it or not, economics play an enormous role in whether or not a species survives, both in the wild and captivity. It has to be more profitable to keep species alive and in the wild if you want the natives on your side. Like wise, if we want ex-situ assurance colonies to thrive, we need to be "allowed" by the various governments involved to move captive bred specimens around the country and around the globe, and even {…gasp… horror of horrors….} turn a profit doing so. That one island in the Seychelles could meet the entire worldwide demand for radiata and aldabra tortoises, if the governments would simply allow him to sell the CB babies and ship them around the globe. Think of the pressure this would take off of wild tortoises. If you could easily and cheaply get the animal you wanted from a reliable, legal, CB source, there would be no market for parasite ridden, roughly handled possibly poached WC imports.

Obviously, we need to do everything possible to protect wild tortoises and their habitats, but there is no denying the utility of assurance colonies as a tool for saving any species. There is also no denying that private individuals, often motivated by both profit and profound love of the species, are far more successful at propagating a species than any AZA facility or government run facility. In fact the government has been nearly a universal failure at it. In the cases where AZA facilities succeed, without exception, the success can be traced back to a private individual that helped in some way or other. I don't have the knowledge, experience or ability to do anything about habitat destruction in foreign countries at this time in my life, but I most definitely have the ability to raise and propagate rare tortoise species that are in need of help, if only I could get my hands on them...

 

[Sterant]

There is also no denying that private individuals, often motivated by both profit and profound love of the species, are far more successful at propagating a species than any AZA facility or government run facility

In support of this Tom, a little data analysis of the most recently produced studbook for radiata. It shows that in the past, AZA facilities were a player in the production of radiata hatchlings, but in the last 10 years, that has solidly swung in favor of private breeders. There is no justification for an AZA facility to produce large numbers of hatchlings. Reintroduction to the wild is not generally an option, and selling the hatchlings for profit is generally not allowed for an AZA Facility (or at least frowned upon). The only driver for large scale hatchling production lies within private breeders.

Radiata hatchlings produced from 1996 to 2006

AZA Facility: 304
Private Breeders: 301

Radiata hatchlings produced from 2006 to 2016

AZA Facility: 88
Private Breeders: 968

Dan

 

[Tom]

In support of this Tom, a little data analysis of the most recently produced studbook for radiata. It shows that in the past, AZA facilities were a player in the production of radiata hatchlings, but in the last 10 years, that has solidly swung in favor of private breeders. There is no justification for an AZA facility to produce large numbers of hatchlings. Reintroduction to the wild is not generally an option, and selling the hatchlings for profit is generally not allowed for an AZA Facility (or at least frowned upon). The only driver for large scale hatchling production lies within private breeders.

Radiata hatchlings produced from 1996 to 2006

AZA Facility: 304
Private Breeders: 301

Radiata hatchlings produced from 2006 to 2016

AZA Facility: 88
Private Breeders: 968

Dan

I can't disagree on any of your points, but I would like to point out that of the dozens of radiata breeders that I know personally, not a one of them is involved with stud booked animals. There is no way to get numbers, but based on what I see, there are probably at least 10 times that amount being produced "off the books". Probably more than 10 times that amount. And that is just in the small circle of people that I know.

HEY! While we are on the subject, I need an adult male radiata. Prefer to find one in CA, but I know of several CBW holders that will help out if need be. A vet friend of mine was just given 3 gorgeous adult females. I'm building a night box for them now. If anyone reading has any leads, I would much appreciate the help.

 

[Sterant]

Probably more than 10 times that amount. And that is just in the small circle of people that I know.

Absolutely Tom - I should have qualified those numbers as "Only what shows up in the studbook". I also know of many more outside of the book, which only goes to strengthen the point that private breeders are, and have a reason to be, more successful.

 

[Tom]

...and have a reason to be, more successful.

Its the above part that is key in this discussion from my POV. Give people a good reason, and every species will be saved. Implementing this can be tricky, but we have many many examples of past success to draw from. The alligator in Louisiana is a good one. Peregrin falcons are another. The previously mentioned Burmese Star tortoise (Near and dear to my heart. See my avatar…) is a good example of the success that can be had if the government just stays out of it and lets people do what people do. I chose to work with platynota over radiata primarily because of the lack of regulation.