New tort mom!!

TMartin510

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Even male and female pairs will bully if housed together. Groups are different and genders needs to be right but more you have the more space you need so they can separate out and avoid each other.
Ok I was thinking in the next year or 2 to have 3 females 1 male? And by the end of next week I will have a yard enclosed with a house hide built and extra hides with a ton of roaming space
 

Lyn W

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Ok I was thinking in the next year or 2 to have 3 females 1 male? And by the end of next week I will have a yard enclosed with a house hide built and extra hides with a ton of roaming space
I only have one but I'm sure Zero or someone with groups will be able to offer better advice abut getting the mix right.
What sort of tort do you have?
You may be get more replies of you start your own thread about it.
 

Lyn W

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So if pairs is not a good idea, out of curiosity what makes groups better?
Not sure I think I've read it's something to do with group dynamics and with pairs one of two becoming dominant and harassing the other because of the competition. Some people even keep their males separate from a group of females I believe to give them a break but that may depend on the male's sex drive. Try doing a search and see what that throws out.
 

Lyn W

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My leopard doesn't even like me on his patch. If I sit in his outside enclosure he will march across to me and barge me and try to get under my legs to lift them, which I suppose is what they do to other torts to try to tip them. He makes it very clear I am not welcome.
The other day he spotted a tortoise garden ornament which I thought I'd put out of his sight as I didn't want to stress him with it, but he managed to get out of his enclosure and was having a face off with it. So he would definitely not tolerate another tortoise.
 

TMartin510

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Dang, thats like one of my Russians and is why i named him Buster, although he seems to be curious when I'm around when he's near the Russian female he goes absolutely nuts, and puts on the jets at full speed train to nip at her back legs and bobbing his head lol. After that he use to think his house was a tortiose as he did the same signs around it because well it was a cave and looked like one to him i guess lol.
 

Lyn W

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Dang, thats like one of my Russians and is why i named him Buster, although he seems to be curious when I'm around when he's near the Russian female he goes absolutely nuts, and puts on the jets at full speed train to nip at her back legs and bobbing his head lol. After that he use to think his house was a tortiose as he did the same signs around it because well it was a cave and looked like one to him i guess lol.
Yup he's the boss, that would really stress her out if constant.
I had no idea they were such territorial little monsters before I got mine and started learning all about them.
It's pretty fascinating.
 

TMartin510

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Yeah i agree haha, i owned one female russian and box turtle together before i knew of this site, they lived together for over 15 years, along with a Tegu BW lol.. i have pics of the Tegu and Russian basking together, and the Russian is the boss and the Tegu is a tame as can be and seems to love the Russian, Never once aggression on the females. although now reading through her i guess my Russian did punk my Box turtle from time to time but not often.

My Redfoot is so sweet! She's the curious thing ever and comes out right when i walk into the room. Even if she isn't hungry she just wants me to pet her under her chin and on top of her head.
 

Lyn W

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Yeah i agree haha, i owned one female russian and box turtle together before i knew of this site, they lived together for over 15 years, along with a Tegu BW lol.. i have pics of the Tegu and Russian basking together, and the Russian is the boss and the Tegu is a tame as can be and seems to love the Russian, Never once aggression on the females. although now reading through her i guess my Russian did punk my Box turtle from time to time but not often.

My Redfoot is so sweet! She's the curious thing ever and comes out right when i walk into the room. Even if she isn't hungry she just wants me to pet her under her chin and on top of her head.
Zeropilot has a male RF like that who just wants his attention all the time - says he was raised by a lady who treated him like a little pet dog.
 

TMartin510

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Damn thats awesome, i feel mine was raised like that but not under the correct conditions as a baby. She was sold as a pair, and if mines the female then the male someone else bought from the reptile store, and apparently mine got depressed for about a month and now she's with me. Once my outdoor enclosure is ready, ill be looking for a friendly male to go with my friendly females and maybe one more female, I've read 1 male to 3 females is good. My area is gonna be big i can't wait to get it done lol
 

Lyn W

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Damn thats awesome, i feel mine was raised like that but not under the correct conditions as a baby. She was sold as a pair, and if mines the female then the male someone else bought from the reptile store, and apparently mine got depressed for about a month and now she's with me. Once my outdoor enclosure is ready, ill be looking for a friendly male to go with my friendly females and maybe one more female, I've read 1 male to 3 females is good. My area is gonna be big i can't wait to get it done lol
Pet stores are not very reliable and often get mixed up especially if they're babies as you can't really tell for a couple of years what they are so wouldn't trust what they say. Good luck with the enclosure though - sounds great.
 

TMartin510

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They were about 4 years old, and this is more of a special pet store, but your right they seem to have told me the wrong Gender. But thats fine haha. and thank you! ima post pics when I'm done :)
 

Alaskamike

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It was asked earlier in this thread why a group can work when a pair often will not. It is only speculation (we can't get inside a tortoise brain LOL) but by watching behavior there are some things that stand out.

Our environments are enclosed with a limited space. Not like the great outdoors where a tortoise encountering another in his territory could run the newcomer out, and the defeated tortoise would just wander off and find a new territory. They are stuck, and so hide, or have to be on constant guard for the aggression of the more dominant tortoise. The aggression is very subtle, and most people would not even notice it. It is not always flipping the other over, or ramming. Sometimes it is just bumping shells, or walking over and eating the food right out from under the other's head (I've seen this). Or constantly following the more submissive tort around. People think they are "buddies" but the dominant one is letting the submissive one know they are under surveillance.

It is true this behavior is more likely as the tortoises' age. Sometimes not see at all as babies.

So why do groups get along when we pairs do not? It seems the addition of several, makes the dominant tortoise's job of keeping control of the territory much more of a strain, and maybe even overwhelming so he/she gives it up. It is still very important that they each have their own hide, and are watched. Tortoises can live for years together and then one day, for whatever reason, one bites the leg off the other.

Not all tortoises are so territorial, but Sulcatas, Leopards, and Russians are VERY much so. In the tortoise world size also matters. If you have several, and one is gaining allot more weight and growing bigger than the others, that is most probably the most aggressive one. Or if you put several together and one is much larger that the others, there could be real danger.

We personify our animals, assigning human - like traits and emotions to what we observe and expect. Its natural. We humans need company, friends, a social structure...
But in the reptile world, territory is paramount, and they do not seek out "friends".
Good fortune with yours.
 

ZEROPILOT

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Curious do you house multiples together and how do you do it? I'm waiting on what I believe my second female, first I thought a male and seems to be female.
I've kept two female RF together before. The key is a LOT of room and two of everything, however in my case they ended up sleeping and eating together. One was a food hog and would sit ON the plate so that the other couldn't get food and the sleeping together thing could have also been bullying looking back.
Ideally for RF it would be a male and then at least two females. I keep a male and four females together and have two others that remain separated from the rest as well as each other. It gets complicated.
Even with RF its best not to have two.
By the way, in my herd of five RF the dominant one is a smaller female. She is very bossy but has four others to keep in line so no single one has to feel her wrath.
 

TMartin510

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I've kept two female RF together before. The key is a LOT of room and two of everything, however in my case they ended up sleeping and eating together. One was a food hog and would sit ON the plate so that the other couldn't get food and the sleeping together thing could have also been bullying looking back.
Ideally for RF it would be a male and then at least two females. I keep a male and four females together and have two others that remain separated from the rest as well as each other. It gets complicated.
Even with RF its best not to have two.
By the way, in my herd of five RF the dominant one is a smaller female. She is very bossy but has four others to keep in line so no single one has to feel her wrath.
Wow thanks for the info!
 

TortLove13

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These knowledgeable folks here have years and years of experience. Try and learn from them, they know what they are talking about.

I appreciate every bit of advice given. I'm here for that. When I mention my breeders (and they have people who assist with the breeding/adopting out), I do so because they too have tons of information and are very knowledgeable. One even works for a vet and they also do fostering of various animals/reptiles. They have a nice size outside enclosure of which 3 adult sulcatas and one RF are living. They are all very social and come to you when in their home. I've personally experienced this with them. They don't even care when 3 little dogs go in there. They just walk around. When mine are old enough for outside, the enclosure will have a divider, in the event issues are encountered. And I will probably get at least one more tort. I am home every day and am able to keep watch on the little babies and determine if changes need to be made.
I hope I'm making sense of what I'm trying to say.
Please, continue with your opinions and/or experiences.
 

Careym13

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I appreciate every bit of advice given. I'm here for that. When I mention my breeders (and they have people who assist with the breeding/adopting out), I do so because they too have tons of information and are very knowledgeable. One even works for a vet and they also do fostering of various animals/reptiles. They have a nice size outside enclosure of which 3 adult sulcatas and one RF are living. They are all very social and come to you when in their home. I've personally experienced this with them. They don't even care when 3 little dogs go in there. They just walk around. When mine are old enough for outside, the enclosure will have a divider, in the event issues are encountered. And I will probably get at least one more tort. I am home every day and am able to keep watch on the little babies and determine if changes need to be made.
I hope I'm making sense of what I'm trying to say.
Please, continue with your opinions and/or experiences.
I have 2 Leopards that are just turning a year old. I received them together and they are siblings. In the last couple of months, one has started to grow much faster than the other. The larger one is now 40 grams bigger than the smaller one. I work everyday so I'm not home to observe them, but I have a wifi camera in their enclosure that I watch them on throughout the day. I have noticed no bullying, except for the now larger one ramming and flipping the smaller one over one time. Even with these two being the same age and same species, I still had to separate them. And, as a result of having two, one is now small for it's age and has some catching up to do. Long story short, sometimes damage can be done before you even notice it. If you have the space and means to house two separately then I say go for it...but it will only be a matter of time before you have to separate if you start them off together.
 

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