New Russian Tortoise Owner!

[Elisabeth Joy]

I have recently adopted two young Russian tortoises! They are amazing, and I did lots of research before bringing them into my family. However, there are some questions that I cannot find a straight-forward answer to online.

1) I am custom making them a tortoise table. They are young now, but I would like to make it large enough that they will not outgrow it. What are the desirable dimensions for a tortoise table housing two adult Russians?
(They will only be in their table when it is too cold/rainy to be outside, but I would like to make it as comfortable as possible for them)

2) I've had them for about a week now. Ivan has yet to eat, and Anastasia has only been nibbling on her greens. I've read this can be normal as they adjust, but when does it cross over from normal to concerning? Are there any tips on how to get them eating?

3) Ivan and Anastasia love to sleep! In fact, they're sleeping quite a bit. I read about some tortoises wanting to hibernate... how do I know if mine are trying to do so, and what can I do to keep them awake and active?

4) Substrates. When researching before hand, I was very overwhelmed with all the options and preferences. I settled on "Repti Bark", which I purchased at the pet store along with my torts. However, I know the employees at your local PetSmart are not tortoise experts, which leads me to this question: is there a substrate my torts would enjoy more? One that would be healthier and more beneficial to them?

Thank you!

 

[wellington]

Hello,and Welcome. Make two tables, they will not be able to live together. One will get bullied and get sick or dead. Russians specially can be real fighters.
The wood chips are fine, I like to use plain dirt or leaf litter or a mixture of the two. Russians like to borrow and it's hard to do in wood chips.
They do need an adjustment period. Older ones seem to take longer them hatchlings. How big/old are they? It might help to get them separated before the bullying begins. It might also help them come out of their shell a little. ( LOL)
Please read Toms caresheets for Russians in the Russian section. There is one for hatchlings and one for older ones.

 

[Jodie]

I second the separate enclosures advice. They take time to adjust. They will be inactive and not eat, if they are not warm enough. What are your temps. Basking, warm side, cool side and night low? Keep it warm and bright to keep them awake.
Welcome to the forum. The care guides will be really helpful.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome.

First to your questions:
1. 4x8' is a good size for a russian. They cover miles a day in the wild. They are a very active species and they need room to move. They should never be housed as a pair. Read these for more explanation:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/
2. It can take a while to get them eating, but temps and lighting are a factor. Did the pet store sell you one of those coil bulbs for UV? Those can burn their eyes and since it hurts, they hide from the burning sensation. Tell us your four temps and what equipment you are using for heating and lighting.
3. This is related to number two. Same questions.
4. Repti-Bark is my preference for adult russians. There is nothing better in my opinion.

These should help too:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

 

[Gillian M]

A very warm welcome to the forum!

I agree with the members who suggested separating the torts so as to avoid bullying. One tort could hurt another.

Please read the "Beginners Mistake" Thread and do NOT hesitate to ask ANY question, keeping in mind that you're going to have to receive conflicting info, as this is not....mathematics where 1+2=2.

Kindly post pics of your torts as well as their enclosure(s).

 

[Elisabeth Joy]

Their shells are 4/4.5 inches.

I am using a 60 watt "Daylight Blue Reptile Bulb" and a "Reptisun" 5.0 UVB. I turn them off during the night.

 

[Elisabeth Joy]

A picture of Ivan and Anastasia in their 50 gal Rubbermaid bin. Definitely makeshift until their tables are build. Thank you so much on the advice of separate enclosures!

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Elisabeth, and welcome to the Forum!

Your tortoises are almost full grown, and wild caught. The habitat you've made for them is not nearly big enough, not even for just one of them.

I'm afraid your UVB light is the kind that is painful on their eyes. Don't use it. These are the two types you should look into:



OR



and for night time heat (if your house is cold at night):

 

[Elisabeth Joy]

This is very surprising to me! I was told they were about a year old and came from a breeder when I got them. How can you tell?
I am very aware this encloser is too small. They are outside quite often and hopefully that can tide them over until the two tortoise tables I am making are finished.
Lighting has always been a gray area for me. Thank you so much for letting me know! It is my Reptisun bulb that is harmful to their eyes, and not the Daylight bulb? I will look into replacing it ASAP!

 

[Yvonne G]

Yes, the reptisun bulb.

Pet stores like Petsmart, buy their stock from wholesalers. A locally owned, small business type pet store might buy from a local breeder, but the chain stores have places they buy from and it's usually not local breeders. I can tell about the tortoise's age by just looking at them. The difference between a captive bred, young tortoise is quite visible and much different from a wild caught tortoise. They are almost full grown, but will get a bit bigger. A year old Russian tortoise would be about 2 or 3" in a straight line from front to back. And the shell would be very clean-looking with a lot of yellow on it.

Captive bred young russian:

wild caught young Russian:

Can you see the difference between the two? The bottom picture is not quite full grown, but like maybe 8 years or so. The top picture is maybe about a year or so.

The clerks in the pet store think that because the Russian tortoises they sell are so small they must be quite young. Russian tortoises are a small species. The law is pet stores can't sell turtles and tortoises that are smaller than 4". When a Russian tortoise gets to be 4" he's about 5 or 6 years old already.

 

[Gillian M]

I agree with Yvonne: the enclosure is rather small. Please keep in mind that torts are used to living in the wild where they roam around without boundaries, borders, red lights.

 

[Tom]

We realize that you were told some different things at the pet store, but our interest is not to sell you stuff. Our interest is in helping your tortoises.

Looking at your set up we can see that you got all the typical bad pet store advice. We don't want to make you feel bad, we want you to have the right info for the long term health and well being of your new tortoises.

I'm sorry, but the pet store sold you all the wrong stuff. You are not alone, they always do this. Lets start at the most dangerous and work down from there:
1. Those ramped water bowls are great for lizards and snakes, but they are literally death traps for tortoises. Remove it right away. Better to have no water at all for a day or two, than drown. Terra cotta plant saucers work best for water.
2. The coil type cfl bulb can burn their eyes. Also, they are not effective as a UV source, and the 5.0 bulb produces almost no UV anyway. I've confirmed this with my UV meters.
3. Those double domes are not good. Different bulbs might need to be at different heights or locations depending on your individual set up and this can change during the course of a year. For example, some people ned night heat over winter, but not over summer. If you do need night heat, you'll want a CHE (ceramic heating element) over the middle of the enclosure to maintain ambient temps all over, but you will still want your basking lamp over to one side during the day. Also the deep domes will over heat a MVB (mercury vapor bulb) which is probably what you will switch to once you are done reading and learning.
4. I'm not sure about the "daylight blue" bulb. Their basking bulb should be "white" light for day time.
5. A couple of those tubs will work just fine until the tables are built, and its a cheap easy way to go to.
6. They got the substrate right!!! You'll just need a lot more of it and you can get it in bulk for less money than those tiny little Petsmart bags cost. Go to a garden center and ask for fine grade orchid bark.

All of this and more is explained in the links at the end of post number 4 above. I would take these products back to the pet store and ask for a full refund while explaining to the manager why. If they hear this enough and get enough of this dangerous stuff returned, they will eventually stop selling it to people.

 

[Elisabeth Joy]

Thank you all so much for the advice and info! I am new and inexperienced as a tortoise owner and appreciate every piece of guidance! I too want only the best for my tortoises. I will be implementing everything suggested!

 

[Elisabeth Joy]

UPDATE! still temporary- building two tortoise tables takes a bit of time... but hopefully these changes will make their wait more comfortable and healthier for the two of them. Thank you again (from my torts and I) for everyone's help!

 

[Oxalis]

@Elisabeth Joy, welcome to the forum! You are now among reptile lovers who quite enjoy spoiling their turtles and tortoises! Let me know if you need some easy-to-grow plant suggestions for an outdoor enclosure. I am happy to provide!

Did the pet store sell you one of those coil bulbs for UV? Those can burn their eyes and since it hurts, they hide from the burning sensation.

Thanks for the info, @Tom. While I've had my Russian for 6 years this month, I have been using much better lighting for him than he probably had with previous owners (currently using PowerSun). Nevertheless, I did not know that those bulbs "burned" their eyes! That is so sad! :'( How does that work?

 

[Tom]

UPDATE! still temporary- building two tortoise tables takes a bit of time... but hopefully these changes will make their wait more comfortable and healthier for the two of them. Thank you again (from my torts and I) for everyone's help!

Well done.

I see two potential issues for you to keep an eye on.
1. Your bulbs look awfully high. If the basking temp under them is correct, then you are all set. If the basking temp is too low, you will need to lower the fixtures a bit. Perhaps you could hang them under that shelf? Your thermometer will answer this question for you.
2. I think your tortoises are eventually going to climb out of those tubs due to the low sides. If not, then nevermind.

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the info, [USER=3441]@Tom. While I've had my Russian for 6 years this month, I have been using much better lighting for him than he probably had with previous owners (currently using PowerSun). Nevertheless, I did not know that those bulbs "burned" their eyes! That is so sad! :'( How does that work?[/USER]

I've heard many theories, but no one can say for certain exactly what the problem is because no one with a fully staffed multi-million dollar testing facility has been willing to run a test on these bulbs.

The most plausible explanation that I have heard is that tiny cracks can form in the phosphor coating of these bulbs during shipping and this allows eye damaging UVC to get through.

Regardless of the actual mechanics of the problem, there is no doubt that there is a problem with at least some of these bulbs.

 

[Oxalis]

I've heard many theories, but no one can say for certain exactly what the problem is because no one with a fully staffed multi-million dollar testing facility has been willing to run a test on these bulbs. The most plausible explanation that I have heard is that tiny cracks can form in the phosphor coating of these bulbs during shipping and this allows eye damaging UVC to get through. Regardless of the actual mechanics of the problem, there is no doubt that there is a problem with at least some of these bulbs.

Thanks so much, @Tom! I do wish we had a multi-million-dollar facility for testing! Only the best for my tortoise baby!

 

[AnimalLady]

Hello and welcome!!

I love Russian torts!

I just want to say to watch out and be careful. Russians are climbers and do the impossible! They might be able to get out of there.