New member with a Leopard Tortoise

Reptilian Feline

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Joined
May 17, 2017
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258
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Sweden
I fell in love with the Leopard tortoises quite by accident. They were in a terrarium at eye level at a privately owned exotic pets store that I was visiting with my hubby. He was getting some new tarantulas, and I was tagging along to have a look myself.

Long story short - I went home, did some research and decided to get one at the next Expo over in Denmark... and so I did.

He is tiny, the seller/breeder is Swedish like me, and I have the paper for him/her with the date of birth.

I worried about his health (I got the wrong paper first with an older tort birthday) and asked questions over at ATP (I also have a Pelomedusa variabilis). I did get some good advice, but needed more, and so Google led me here.

I've been reading about keeping hatchling leopards here, about closed chambers, night temp, soaking and reasons for tiny torts. I hope to find some more answers and will post questions in the proper sections.

Thanks for having me!
 

Korall

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Nov 18, 2016
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180
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Sweden
There are som excellent care sheets here in the specific species section, they have things like diet, temps, humidity etc.

And if you have any questions there are a lot of experienced people here who can answer them.

Welcome to the forum :)
 

Markw84

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Welcome, and I'm glad you found this place. You will find a lot of supportive information to all I have given you over at ATP here. This is the best source for info on tortoise keeping.
 

Reptilian Feline

Active Member
Joined
May 17, 2017
Messages
258
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Sweden
When I first saw the 6 month old leopard tortoises in the pet store (privately owned safe stor to buy everything from tarantulas to rats), I was blown away by their looks. I watched them eat through the glass and wondered if this was the tort for me. I've been contemplating a tortoise for quite a few years, but never really found one that caught my attention the way these leopards did. I did a quick google in the store and wondered... dry, grass and weed eaters, quite big, and long lived. A lifetime commitment for sure. I talked it over with my hubby and he was in on the idea if I wanted to get one. We figured the dogs would be gone of old age when the tort would be big enough to roam our living room, so that would be fine. A herbivore who enjoyed the dry climate seemed ideal for an indoor setup. Our summers can get quite sunny and warm, but sometimes it's just rain, rain and more rain, and then we have our winters... so indoors with an outing weather permitting, was the plan.

A few weeks later I went to an expo in Denmark and looked around for leopard torts while also looking for tarantulas for my hubby and taking pictures, worrying if my ride would ask me to leave before I was done. I found a few at Happy Reptiles, a bad seller. I don't trust him with information or paperwork even if he might have some. The price was OK, and they looked fine, about the same size as the ones I've seen in the store. I didn't want to buy from him so I continued looking. Then I found a tiny little pretty thing with a Swedish breeder/seller. He offered me a deal based on me not wanting to buy from Happy Reptiles, and also offered to switch the tort if I didn't want to keep that one (he had others at home). Happily I bought the litte one, folded up the paper without looking and totally forgot to ask questions on how he had been raised and so on (a bit stressed from not being there on my own). I didn't buy any supplies because I was convinced I had all what I needed for the setup at home.

I took him home, and put him in some water, not to hot, maybe even a bit on the cool side for him, but I never measured the temp. He started to look less stressed and started to poop. It was mostly leaves and watery and at one point he farted. The tail looked a bit swollen. I left him to it while I got a small plastic box for him. A temporary bathtub with lid so we could walk the dogs. He couldn't drown in there even if he had tried. He seemd a bit better from the water when we got back, and I made a temporary box for him for the night with food and coconut coir and a heat mat... it was late and we could both need a rest from traveling.

The next day I measured him - 4 cm in shell lenght - and then looked at the birthday on the paper. It couldn't be right? 2014? No way! But I'm not an expert on tort sizes, so I went to the ATP forum and started asking questions. Mark W was, and is, very helpful there. The size and age didn't match. I also recieved a lot of advice that I hadn't found in the sometimes outdated care sheets I had made my plans on. I got in touch with the seller/breeder and got the proper paper for the little on. Birthdate 2016-04-25. That still makes him tiny, and I worried, still do, if he would live or not. And that's how I found this place, looking for info on size, growth and so on.

I found out that I need a closed chamber setup to maintain both heat and humidity. The advice to just keep the hide box more humid for little ones wasn't enough. I'm working on this.

My heat lamp and UVB wasn't enough, but my fixture wouldn't fit a proper MV-compact light, so for now he had a solar flood light for heat and light, and gets the UVB from when I take him outside. I will get a lamp and fixture at the expo I'm going to next weekend (27th May).

The box can't be converted to a closed chamber because it is too low. I was thinking turtle tabel, when I got it. Didn't know better.

I will get some ZooMed Grassland pellets for him at the expo. For now he eats dandelion, grass, and a few other things from my garden, all on the turtle table safe list. I never even contemplated giving him fruit or protein.

I have a heat mat on top of his hide-end of the box to keep the night temp up. It isn't ideal, but the temp is fine for now, especially with the summer suddenly hitting us this week.

I dumped water into his box to keep things moist, thanks to Mark W, and spray in the morning and when I get home. His water bowl has a low side but I don't think he has been in it.

I have planted grass and a deadnettle in there for him to hide under and nibble on, and there is plenty of moss in the hide end.

He doesn't eat as much as I want him to, and he doesn't poop as much either, even if I get him a proper soak in the evening when I get home from work. I put in warmish water up over his lowest sides shutes. I also make sure he doesn't drown.

A couple of times he has been a bit more active after his bath and has walked around on the table, supervised of course.

When I take him outside he likes to eat on grass or dandelion, but I have to tear it into small pieces for him. I sometimes hand feed him. Yesterday after a nice trip to the garden and a good soak he spent a bit longer time in the food bowl eating dandelion leaf.

I read about how the upbringing of baby torts might damage their inner organs, and that is heart breaking! I might do everything for this little one, and still loose him because the breeder is stupid. He actually recommended I turned off the heat in the evening and night so the enclosure held between 19-20 celcius, rather than the 27-28 I try to maintain it at. *SIGH*

I know I'm on my way to make things right... I've read a lot of threads here the last week or so, trying to adjust and plan ahead, and Mark W has been very helpful too. I think the little one is doing better and I love to watch him eat, but still... I worry so much! I weighed him... 16 grams. I guess that's what to expect for a 4 cm little tort, but I'm sure he is a bit on the thin side. His shell is solid though. I give him calcium and vitamins from exo-terra. The calcium has D3 in it. I gave him some cuttle fish bone yesterday, but don't know if he has been at it yet.

Plans for the future: Bigger box both bottom as well as hight to make a closed chamber setup. An MV-compact light in a proper fixture, as low watt as possible since this will be a closed box. A couple of heat mats stuck to the side where he should sleep, to keep the night temp as high as possible. I have a few small mats lying around. If they can't keep up, then I'll get a CHE. I will get an IR-temp meter and see if I can find a thermostat for the heat mat or CHE at the expo.

I have probalby forgotten to write a few things in this lenghty post. Just ask, and I'll clarify.
 

Reptilian Feline

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258
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Sweden
Some pictures:
 

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Markw84

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I am impressed by your efforts to get things turned around and set up as best as possible, as soon as possible! Your little tortoise has shown himself to be a survivor so far, as he's made it 14 months with absolutely no growth! I did some quick calculations based on my formulas for leopard ideal weights, and your little guy really is good at 16g if he is just 4cm. We just need to see him start growing, and it will be a great sign.

We have some of the best tortoise keepers in the world here on this forum. Perhaps others can chime in and give ideas on how to save this little guy!

Again, we are talking about a 14 month old leopard tortoise that is still 4cm and 16g. Aware of the potential "hatchling failure" and the turn around needed to "turn on the monsoon season" ideas would be appreciated on how to get this little trouper growing. This new forum member has read through all the pinned care sheets and more here, and is looking for ideas...
@Tom , @Yvonne G , @Elohi , @Cowboy_Ken , @diamondbp , @Jacqui , @Jodie
 

Neal

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Eating (even just a little bit) and pooping are hopeful signs.

I would recommend maintaining the night temperatures at no less than 29c (maybe even 31-32) at night and allow him access to areas in the enclosure during the day that reach the mid 30's.

The higher than normal temperatures should encourage him to eat more, leading to the next point of advice I would give in this situation - Offer as much food as he is willing to eat. Try to grow edible plants in his enclosure so that he can graze at-will any time during the day.

What type of foods are you offering?
 

Cowboy_Ken

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I am impressed by your efforts to get things turned around and set up as best as possible, as soon as possible! and the turn around needed to "turn on the monsoon season"
To me, the best way to turn on the monsoon season needed for this little guy would be to just go for it. Dive in with daily if not bi-daily soaks and get a humid enclosure set up asap while offering fresh, foods to eat.
With my babies I tend to be somewhat "in your face" to help them be acclimated to me and others, but maybe this little guy needs alittle more time just for himself to get settled in and comfortable.
 

Reptilian Feline

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258
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Sweden
Neal, I have two types of grass growing, and a small yellow archangel planted in the tank (I like the name deadnettle for those plants, a nettle with no sting is a dead nettle :) ).
I'm feeding him different types of grass from my garden, as well as dandelion leaves, lilac and hazel leaves, some beech from the new growth. I also offer some ground elder, yellow archangel and forget-me-not. I will also offer some elm when I find some that isn't too close to a street. He also have some grass moss to hide in and he has tried to eat some, but I think he was just very hungry when he did.
I always have to remove dried leaves and grass from his food plate, so I do offer more than he eats.

During weekdays I can only soak him once a day, because I get up too early to give him a bath in the morning, he is still sleeping at that time. I do mist him though. I haven't seen him in his water bowl. Can I place a heat mat under it to get the water a bit warmer?

He seem to enjoy being taken outside. He tries to eat the grass, but I end up hand feeding small pieces because he has trouble biting off the strands.

Yesterday when I got home, he started to nibble on the cuttle bone, but when I gave him some fresh leaves on his plate, he turned around and started eating of those instead.

I haven't seen him poop in the water in a while, but one evening he had poop stuck to his tail; solid poop he had done on land.

I might be misstaken, but I have this memory of him being a bit paler when I brought him home, than what he is now. Do they grow darker when they eat more?

Should I contact the breeder to find out how he rears the hatchlings? He might not give me an answer, but maybe if I'm a bit sneeky in my questions he might tell me.

Maybe it doesn't matter at this point. He seemes to be doing better. I know he isn't out of the woods yet, but food in, poop out and more energy, does make me less worried.

I sometimes worry that he won't eat when he tries to eat but bites into nothing because he hasn't turned his head to the side to get the morsel into his mouth. He is a tortoise though - maybe that is normal? I love watching him eat... sometimes he gapes soooo much over a tiny piece of grass.
 
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