National Breeders Expo---Daytona

[tortadise]

Was a fun time. Lots of great turtles and people

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Thanks Will. First article is interesting because it demonstrates differences in thermoregulation, but no pros or cons. Would you suspect a longer duration to attain desired temps and longer duration for cool down would pose health concerns?

Couldn't view third article in its entirety, but think it speaks to my point that humans and chelonians can't very effectively be compared.

I did not read them, I just wanted to bring more real science to the conversation, and PubMed is often overlooked as is google scholar, both being search engines with an algorithm that serves a different 'searcher'. Extrapolating form one species to another is a good starting point in understanding many biological processes, but it is hardly the last or best "word".

IMO the preponderance of evidence is that 'natural' albinos are just as fit to survive (reptiles) as any other normal color individual, and in places where natural predators are limited the occurrence of natural albinos goes up (some snakes in Japan as the leading example). There are other examples with birds too.

The deliberate production of these animals, again in my opinion, takes away from the wonder of it, and is a push for 'utility'. I have see many people softened by an albino kingsnake to find snakes in general much more okay than normal colored ones. So they are good 'animal ambassadors'. I don't seek the result of inbreeding or hybrids (all the genetic "junk" animals) but I don't find it so horrible that others do it.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Was a fun time. Lots of great turtles and people

Hope you can make TTPG, but I imagine you are rehearsing reasons why not already. LOL

 

[tortadise]

Hope you can make TTPG, but I imagine you are rehearsing reasons why not already. LOL

Already booked my
Plane tickets. Arranging what to speak about if Russ still wants me to.

 

[KevinGG]

I did not read them, I just wanted to bring more real science to the conversation, and PubMed is often overlooked as is google scholar, both being search engines with an algorithm that serves a different 'searcher'. Extrapolating form one species to another is a good starting point in understanding many biological processes, but it is hardly the last or best "word".

IMO the preponderance of evidence is that 'natural' albinos are just as fit to survive (reptiles) as any other normal color individual, and in places where natural predators are limited the occurrence of natural albinos goes up (some snakes in Japan as the leading example). There are other examples with birds too.

The deliberate production of these animals, again in my opinion, takes away from the wonder of it, and is a push for 'utility'. I have see many people softened by an albino kingsnake to find snakes in general much more okay than normal colored ones. So they are good 'animal ambassadors'. I don't seek the result of inbreeding or hybrids (all the genetic "junk" animals) but I don't find it so horrible that others do it.

Thanks for sharing. I've been pretty active on google scholar for a while now. Had not used pubmed at all until yesterday.

It seems captive albino chelonians would fall in line with what you shared about the wild birds and snakes, except for the vision problems. I've now found quite a few personal stories about albino chelonians in captivity having vision impairments.

 

[Neal]

Already booked my
Plane tickets. Arranging what to speak about if Russ still wants me to.

(sorry off topic) We need to arrange a TFO lunch or dinner or somethin'.

 

[tortadise]

(sorry off topic) We need to arrange a TFO lunch or dinner or somethin'.

YES let's do it! I'm excited to come and meet
Like minded individuals. As introverted as I am, i am certain I will be among good people.

 

[Anyfoot]

Good points I must admit.
I must clarify one or two things though...First, when I am comparing 'fast' or accelerated growth VS 'slow growth' I am in no way suggesting that keeper starve their animals or withhold food in any way. What am against is the deliberate custom of food overload---the practice of constantly having foods in front of the animals face, and or, mixing especially attractive smelling food items to the diet so the tortoises eat more.
Believe me, I feed my neonate and young tortoises pretty much every day and I also have things growing in my yard that they can browse upon. But when it comes to omnivorous species like my red-foot tortoises, I do NOT constantly mix things like cat foods, tuna, chicken or especially sweet fruits into their daily diet so they are encouraged to constantly gorge themselves.
Second, although I did mention the 'smooth = healthy' belief that many keepers chant, I didn't reference this belief to you per se. But it is something that I've heard quit a bit--and it is something I personally find annoyingly simplistic. Sorry, its a personal beef...

The sulcata findings of Devaux are certainly surprising, but also in direct conflict with the findings of virtually every other wild tortoise or turtle studies (except for sea turtles) that I have ever read. I could sit here and cite countless findings of studies done all over the world where its been demonstrated that wild turtles of all kinds grow at a fraction of the rate of their captive counterparts. The maturity rates of wild females are especially MUCH slower than captives. Examples: Barbour's map turtles 14 to 20 years in the wild, Meyland et al. Yet there are captives that are laying in much less than half this time. Leopard tortoises in some especially favorable locations in Tanzania still take 12 years to mature, Vetter. But in other areas 15 or more years.
Scorpion mud turtles in Mexico mature rather quickly at 10 years, Legler and Vogt but in captivity in only 4 years. Wild box turtles in the Florida panhandle take several years to reach only 4 inches. And I've found numerous year old alligator snappers that were literally on a few millimeters larger than neonates that still possess their egg teeth and yolk sac membranes!
Hermann's tortoises in captivity 'mature' in one forth the time of their wild counterparts according to Wegehaupt in, Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of the Hermann's Tortoises. He also clarifies (better than I did) the differences between 'slow growth' that he simply says is mimicking wild growth, and what he calls 'power raising'. True, he's a bit preachy. But I trust his judgement.
Look, I get it...of course captive raised turtles will grow at faster rates than wild animals. That's a no brainer. But geez, at some point I think keepers need to use a little restraint and this brings me to the original point of those sulcata at the Expo. Remember, the breeders themselves stated that their goal was to get them as large as possible as quickly as possible. That the the animals were obviously goofed up was easily observed.
I cannot help but think that the speed in which these animals 'blew up' contributed to the other factors such as diet, their environment and of course humidity that caused them to appear distorted.

Couple of questions Carl.
What does your first years diet typically consist of for redfoots?
Do your babies get rained on much or are they under cover?
Do they receive much direct sunlight?

 

[cdmay]

Couple of questions Carl.
What does your first years diet typically consist of for redfoots?
Do your babies get rained on much or are they under cover?
Do they receive much direct sunlight?

This is slightly OT...but the diet of my neonates is pretty much the same as the adults except that I include more mushrooms and hibiscus leaves. And of course the food items, (escarole, romaine, boiled sweet potato, squash, fruits, etc) are cut to size.
I no longer offer Mazuri chow to any of my animals.
As my neonates are kept indoors before I part with them they don't get rained on....although I do mist them heavily. Same goes for sunlight---they're inside. But I do provide high quality lighting at one end of their enclosures for them to utilize if they so choose.
I get perfect growth with them although when I used to feed them Mazuri I noticed that the front leg scales would often curl up unnaturally no matter how wet I kept them.
You should know that I 'unload' all of my neonates to a friend to raise/sell as soon as I can though. I hatched 74 Brazilians last year but the longest I kept any of them was about 6 weeks.