National Breeders Expo---Daytona
- Thread starter cdmay
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the Turtle Shepherd
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this is a common knowledge, why dont' you type in some words into the search engines and find the studies that confirm it, I do not need to search anything to prove that sun and earth are round or prove anything to you, it is first grade knowledge same goes for albinism, you do not believe me and do not want to do your own research, I can not help you there.
MY albinos are not turtles. I learned about albinos as a child when i got my first albino hamster 30 years ago, it was true then, nothing changed since. Please do your own research, i honestly do not care whether you agree or not, fact remains as it was.
Well, then what exactly gives you any credence to speak on albinism in chelonians? They are not the same as hamsters. And chelonian albinism is in no way comparable to something as researched as the Earth or sun. A look through google scholar didn't yield much. It does seem that some people have reported eye issues, but have yet to find any reports on anyone experiencing skin or shell problems from light sensitivity. There are also hypothesis that the lack of melanin can lead to chronic illnesses in older age, but no studies to back this up. All we have now are keepers with experience. So, I'll leave this to the keepers who have experience with these animals, and hopefully they respond, as this is going the way of previous threads.
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A bit more on the albino sulcata tortoises from the Expo....
First, some good friends of mine who were vending near the folks with the albinos overheard them saying that they are trying to grow them up as fast as possible because the market for them equates to "$1000.00 per inch". So the excessive pyramiding that I saw in some of the animals (which was pretty bad in a few of them, BTW) was likely due to them being pushed up to larger sizes ASAP.
Second, several tortoise guys who are far more knowledgeable than I am stated without any hesitation that pink eyed albino sulcatas, ABSOLUTELY become vision impaired --- if not outright blind --- when maintained outside where they get direct full sunlight. One of these men said the same applies to albino snapping turtles. As sulcatas are a grassland/savanna tortoise one would think that the albinos would lead a limited life.
Lastly, I too am not against albino turtles per se. I think some are really neat---as an individual novelty specimen or as a learning tool. But for the me, the proliferation and hype that surrounds these damaged turtles shows that many keepers/breeders are in it solely for the money.
Think about it...if some goofball discovered a way to produce two-headed star tortoises he'd be richer than Donald J. Trump. But how would the animals he produced feel about things?
First, some good friends of mine who were vending near the folks with the albinos overheard them saying that they are trying to grow them up as fast as possible because the market for them equates to "$1000.00 per inch". So the excessive pyramiding that I saw in some of the animals (which was pretty bad in a few of them, BTW) was likely due to them being pushed up to larger sizes ASAP.
Second, several tortoise guys who are far more knowledgeable than I am stated without any hesitation that pink eyed albino sulcatas, ABSOLUTELY become vision impaired --- if not outright blind --- when maintained outside where they get direct full sunlight. One of these men said the same applies to albino snapping turtles. As sulcatas are a grassland/savanna tortoise one would think that the albinos would lead a limited life.
Lastly, I too am not against albino turtles per se. I think some are really neat---as an individual novelty specimen or as a learning tool. But for the me, the proliferation and hype that surrounds these damaged turtles shows that many keepers/breeders are in it solely for the money.
Think about it...if some goofball discovered a way to produce two-headed star tortoises he'd be richer than Donald J. Trump. But how would the animals he produced feel about things?
Just to keep my pet research issues on track, I though I would not let this pass for others reading and learning... I firmly believe we have shown pyramiding has NOTHING to do with fast growth. It is growth where the keratin is allowed to dry prematurely. Fast or slow does not matter. You can have extremely fast grown tortoises totally smooth with no pyramiding. Plenty of examples here on the forum.
True...mostly. But speed of growth accelerates the process when the other conditions are sub-par. Also jamming an ultra rich diet into a neonate tortoise will cause it to produce goofed up growth and who knows what other internal issues--- unless the external factors are strictly manipulated. True, some keepers are good at carefully controlling environmental parameters for their tortoises and thus produce 'smooth' looking shells. But that aint all there is to it ---and simplifying the argument by saying, "Hey look, it's SMOOTH, therefore perfectly healthy" is a gross oversimplification. Please understand that just because a person produces a smooth shelled captive tortoise does not in-of-itself mean anything other than the fact that it was kept moist. There is much more to growing tortoises than producing a smooth shell. I can raise my red-footed tortoises with super nice and 'smooth shells' while feeding them canned dog food and I've done just so back in the late 70s, before I knew better. I can do that now too. But that doesn't mean that their livers and kidneys won't be be freaking out or that I won't be cutting their life expectancy down to a fraction of what it might be. They may be smooth, but I bet they die young.
Turtles and tortoises (in most cases) simply do not grow that fast under natural circumstances. Taking an impaired neonate like an albino and pushing with accelerated growth only adds to its long term health issues IMO.
the Turtle Shepherd
Active Member
reaserach is all on the first page of google, you need to improve your search skill
last time i am giving you a link and if you actually read the first ones, including wiki - at the end there are all th eresearch info and links you need, that research is not usually easily found on line and trust me, the study paper would be somewhat hard for someone like you to understand, I happen to read science journals, that is why all the articles on the internet try to summarize it for you, apparently to no avail.
"Chediak-Higashi Syndrome:
- In addition to albinism, individuals with this syndrome exhibit abnormalities in white blood cells of the immune system and are predisposed to infections. They may also have peripheral neuropathy, an abnormality in the peripheral nerves that may cause decreased sensation, or abnormal sensations such as burning or tingling. Peripheral nerves transmit signals from the spinal cord to the rest of the body.
- In addition to albinism, individuals with this syndrome have an abnormality in platelets (the components of blood that help create blood clots and stop bleeding), which predisposes them to bleeding. These individuals also accumulate a substance within various cells of the body, called a ceroid, which can lead to abnormalities in the lungs, intestines, and other organs.
Mrinali Patel Gupta, M.D., Weill Cornell Medical College, New York you do not believe me - call this guy, he will laugh into your face.
no more questions, just read, it is right there!
the whole article is here http://www.visionaware.org/info/your-eye-condition/guide-to-eye-conditions/albinism-6165/125
I will no longer respond on this subject, thank you
Haha. You know someone is backed up by data when they start insulting you. Well, again, you provide no evidence of anything to do with chelonian albinism. Probably because, to my knowledge, no evidence exists. Only personal experience. Maybe someone with substantial experience of chelonian albinism will chime in.
the Turtle Shepherd
Active Member
you didn't read any of it, did you? of course not, you sound like a kid, albinism is a GENETIC disorder, if you have not learned in school yet that we all share the same DNA, then well, maybe next year
do not ask others to provide you with research on common knowledge, unless proved otherwise - your comments are childish
Thanks @cdmay for sharing your talks with friends. It seems vision impairments are a legitimate grievance in some animals. This is all I've been able to find looking through different forums. No one I've found has owned an animal with skin, shell, or chronic health problems. A lot of speculation based on human/non-chelonian albinism. Maybe they do have these problems, but haven't seen any evidence of that.
Here's another thread from this forum on the matter. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index.php?threads/Albinos-health.132980/
Further thoughts...
Mark, there is probably no one on this-- or any other forum that I have more respect for than you yourself. So I do not discount your statements or cast them aside.
But I also firmly believe that although accelerated growth is not a sole factor in pyramiding, it is certainly a contributor. Negative results of fast growth can also be seen in captive raised animals that are very smooth.
You and likely many others have seen photos of captive raised tortoises with smooth shells in which the growth lines are widely, and often unevenly spaced. Unlike their wild counterparts who typically have perfectly even and regularly spaced lines of growth on each scute that radiates away from the neonatal areola, these captive tortoises instead have an almost wrinkled empty area between their growth lines.
They appear as if the underlying bony shell wasn't able to keep up the rest of the carapace growth and thus these layers of bone are thinner. So while a cross section of a pyramided tortoise shows the underlying shell to be thick and block-like, the cross section of these other swiftly grown animals may appear to show a thin underlying structure.
I had a man once show me his 3 year old Hermann's tortoise that looked fully grown. He tried to prove to me that all was well because it had a smooth carapace---which it did. The darn thing was gorgeous. But then on closer examination the carapace seemed really thin and their were no real growth lines, just big bands with wavy striations in them. The shell looked almost as if one could take a sharpened pencil and push it right thru and into the body cavity. Had this poor tortoise been raised in a slower more natural way I believe the bone growth could have manifested itself better.
Having said all of this I do know of a keeper who is another person that I highly respect, if not admire. He too grows his animals up at astonishing rates and they do appear perfect and healthy in every respect. But--and this is a big but--he is a microbiologist who realizes that such growth also requires additional care and supplementation to support such growth. His care regimen is far beyond the ability of most of us.
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Thanks for the complimentary prelude. I certainly appreciate it in light of some of the less than open-minded posts here. I also respect you and your thoughts. The value of this forum is to be able to bounce ideas back and forth and hopefully not see it as a personal attack if we disagree with a proposed idea. Such is the stuff real science is made of. Putting ideas up to the examination and ability of your peers to poke holes in, or support.
We do disagree here. I believe pyramiding is a completely independent issue to fast growth. And certainly never have made a statement anywhere close to "it's SMOOTH therefore perfectly healthy". I do however believe that the chances for a smooth tortoise to be healthier than a pyramided tortoise is substantial. Not because being smooth makes it healthy, but because the conditions required to allow keratin to grow properly are the conditions that also allow a tortoise to thrive more easily. The reverse is that the conditions that cause pyramiding also can leads to a variety of health issues. So if I were in the market for a tortoise I would immediately have a red flag go up if I was considering one that was pyramided. I would have to look much further into the husbandry to see if the tortoise had indeed developed properly despite the drying conditions. I would totally avoid getting any hatchling a few months old if I saw obvious signs of pyramiding already forming. The same conditions causing that pyramiding also can cause kidney and renal issues, eye problems, impaction issues, etc, etc.
Can you fast grow a tortoise and not have the proper bone development? Sure, but it is not the growth itself, but the diet and availability of UVB.
I also have spent a good deal of time on the "fast growth causes health issues". I have found nothing to support that. My results and test show, in fact, healthier tortoises with great x-ray bone density, better muscle development, kidney function, and overall metabolic health when allowed to grow as opposed to their counterparts who were "slow grown". I have found it easier to end up with health issues with a slow grown tortoise in captivity, than with a faster growing tortoise when given the same husbandry otherwise. I do not agree that tortoises do not grow fast in the wild. I believe tortoise do grow just as fast in the wild when given optimum conditions, but in "the wild" that only happens perhaps 4 months out of the year. The rest of the time they aestivate and hunker down awaiting better times. AND... yes, developing very marked growth lines that tend to be more regular since they have to undergo such extended periods of virtually no growth every year. I don't know how we can safely create those conditions that allow aestivation and stopped growth without greatly increasing the risk of killing the tortoise in captivity. They don't "slow grow". They grow quickly when conditions permit, and stop growing a great deal of the time. To keep them active and yet restrict or partially starve a tortoise so they slow grow is not a solution in my mind.
In his book, The Crying Tortoise Devaux talks about the growth rate of wild tortoises. He states that although there are years of drought and less frequent rains and vegetation, the sulcata will reach 1kg at the end of a year. When two years old it might weigh 3kg and 6 kg after 3 years. Here on the forum in trying to show how quickly a "fast grown" sulcata can indeed grow, we have pinned a thread of one that amazed most. 2170g at 1 year. Is that really that much faster than Devaux's assessment of "normal wild" growth? Twice the weight, yet growing 12 months out of the year. The wild tortoise grows just as fast when conditions allow. Perhaps faster! It just can't grow a good portion of the year.
I feel we are fighting so many of the older outdated thoughts and warning that I myself learned and lived by a few decades ago. But we are learning so much more now. With this forum, that learning curve has skyrocketed as we are not so isolated in testing our ideas and our exposure to 100's of examples to see the results of various strategies.
I really do appreciate and value your thoughts. For now, we will agree to disagree on this one.
Thanks Will. First article is interesting because it demonstrates differences in thermoregulation, but no pros or cons. Would you suspect a longer duration to attain desired temps and longer duration for cool down would pose health concerns?
Couldn't view third article in its entirety, but think it speaks to my point that humans and chelonians can't very effectively be compared.
you didn't read any of it, did you? of course not, you sound like a kid, albinism is a GENETIC disorder, if you have not learned in school yet that we all share the same DNA, then well, maybe next year
I wish I could have a nice dialogue like Mark.
Perhaps it is my fault. Maybe I like this confrontation. I did read the article which is why I responded. Our sharing of DNA doesn't mean different species react to things the same. We share DNA with redwoods, but I wouldn't cite albinism in redwoods when discussing albinism in humans. Read third article in the link Will provided.
Good points I must admit.
I must clarify one or two things though...First, when I am comparing 'fast' or accelerated growth VS 'slow growth' I am in no way suggesting that keeper starve their animals or withhold food in any way. What am against is the deliberate custom of food overload---the practice of constantly having foods in front of the animals face, and or, mixing especially attractive smelling food items to the diet so the tortoises eat more.
Believe me, I feed my neonate and young tortoises pretty much every day and I also have things growing in my yard that they can browse upon. But when it comes to omnivorous species like my red-foot tortoises, I do NOT constantly mix things like cat foods, tuna, chicken or especially sweet fruits into their daily diet so they are encouraged to constantly gorge themselves.
Second, although I did mention the 'smooth = healthy' belief that many keepers chant, I didn't reference this belief to you per se. But it is something that I've heard quit a bit--and it is something I personally find annoyingly simplistic. Sorry, its a personal beef...
The sulcata findings of Devaux are certainly surprising, but also in direct conflict with the findings of virtually every other wild tortoise or turtle studies (except for sea turtles) that I have ever read. I could sit here and cite countless findings of studies done all over the world where its been demonstrated that wild turtles of all kinds grow at a fraction of the rate of their captive counterparts. The maturity rates of wild females are especially MUCH slower than captives. Examples: Barbour's map turtles 14 to 20 years in the wild, Meyland et al. Yet there are captives that are laying in much less than half this time. Leopard tortoises in some especially favorable locations in Tanzania still take 12 years to mature, Vetter. But in other areas 15 or more years.
Scorpion mud turtles in Mexico mature rather quickly at 10 years, Legler and Vogt but in captivity in only 4 years. Wild box turtles in the Florida panhandle take several years to reach only 4 inches. And I've found numerous year old alligator snappers that were literally on a few millimeters larger than neonates that still possess their egg teeth and yolk sac membranes!
Hermann's tortoises in captivity 'mature' in one forth the time of their wild counterparts according to Wegehaupt in, Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of the Hermann's Tortoises. He also clarifies (better than I did) the differences between 'slow growth' that he simply says is mimicking wild growth, and what he calls 'power raising'. True, he's a bit preachy. But I trust his judgement.
Look, I get it...of course captive raised turtles will grow at faster rates than wild animals. That's a no brainer. But geez, at some point I think keepers need to use a little restraint and this brings me to the original point of those sulcata at the Expo. Remember, the breeders themselves stated that their goal was to get them as large as possible as quickly as possible. That the the animals were obviously goofed up was easily observed.
I cannot help but think that the speed in which these animals 'blew up' contributed to the other factors such as diet, their environment and of course humidity that caused them to appear distorted.
Here's a direct quote: "Power raised tortoises need not necessarily be marked by a humpy shell. But even if the shell has grown relatively smoothly and high due to sufficient intake of water, the underlying bony structure and the other bones will be porous and thick and the tortoise will be irrecoverably damaged" Bold print mine.
From Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises by Wolfgang Wegehaupt. Page 251.
Wegehaupt has a lifetime of tortoise keeping under his belt. As we are all about education and experience, I'd pay careful attention to what he says. He's actually looked inside of dead tortoises.
I respectfully disagree with Mr Wegehaupt. Most every expert who has written a book on tortoises has got pyramiding wrong. They are wrong about the way the shell grows - keratin and bone! I read all those books and followed all their suggestions religiously from 1961 to 2010. I believe the process of driving yourself crazy trying to grow a tortoise that is not pyramided and failing on 100's of tortoises teaches you a lot! Perhaps especially someone like me, who records, studies, isolates variables, etc, etc. I tried every combination of eliminating the things listed as the "cause" and many more! I looked inside tortoises, looked at x-rays, bone density, rear hip deflections, watched keratin grow - and dip - and create valleys. Heck, most all the "experts" will still tell you pyramiding is the center of the scute raising! I have purposely slow grown many tortoises, and fast grown many others. Raised many on absolutely no food except what they grazed on in their large enclosure. Raised a dozen or so on nothing but Rep Cal tortoise pellets their first two years. (my biggest, strongest sulcata is one of those I still have - 175 lbs and growing as fast as ever at 19 yrs old.) I never fed animal protein and have no interest in anyone who does that as an accelerated growth mechanism. If those breeders really want to fast grow a sulcata - just give it monsoon conditions and all the right foods. Keep it in monsoon conditions 24/7. That tortoise will outgrow any other method used. Tortoises handle food and growth differently than most all other animals. They do not and cannot get fat. Their body does not store fat. It stores glycogen in the blood and tissues instead. A tortoise has no place to put fat. So the way they metabolize foods does not lend itself to most of the assumptions many experts make about growth. Bone growth takes time over the shell as the tortoise is so uniquely modified. The old "ribs" need to fill in around the sides of the shell to create the structure and strength of the shell. That can take 5 - 6 years to totally ossify no matter how fast you grow the tortoise in size. The fontanels under the costals rely on the scutes as their protection until this ossifies. As a tortoise grows, its scutes slowly thicken. That takes time. Growth in size accelerates the spreading of new kerating, expanding the scute. But it does not necessarily proportionately speed the rate at which keratin is laid down under the existing scute. That is metabolically controlled to be a much slower rate. So a younger, larger tortoise will have somewhat thinner scutes than an older tortoise of the same size. It is not less healthy, and will catch up, but fontanels filling in and scute thickness takes time. The bone density is still the same in a faster grown tortoise. In fact, I have seen better bone density in monsoon raised tortoises now - that are fast growers. So, again, I believe it is not the rate of growth but the conditions and diet that control health.
The conclusions about how slow chelonians grow and mature in the wild must be viewed in the perspective of how much of the year they can find optimum conditions in which to grow. Most chelonians have extremely limited diet options and food availability most of the year. They hibernate, aestivate and starve a lot of the time. That dramatically changes the rate of growth and, we know, size contributes to maturity. So many refer to the wild as the ideal place, but it is a hard place chelonians have developed a way to SURVIVE in. For the most part, it is not a place they thrive.
Well Mark...you and I actually agree on many points. Your above responses, "Heck, most all the "experts" will still tell you pyramiding is the center of the scute raising! I never fed animal protein and have no interest in anyone who does that as an accelerated growth mechanism." are in complete agreement with my own views. Although I have fed protein in the past I haven't for many years now.
But we differ when you mention the 'monsoon conditions for 24/7'. Brother, the animals do not get that outside of captivity, so why subject them to it just to grow them up fast? I don't get the reason or logic behind such practices... unless one's goal is to get more saleable animals quickly which--- you are not doing. I'm not trying to be Mr. Natural here, but why is there such a fetish for pushing tortoises to grow up quickly?
One member of this forum used to preach, "keep em dripping wet all the time and they won't pyramid on you". But the animals aren't 'dripping wet' all the time in their natural habitat. His animals were perfectly smooth alright, but then their plastrons were covered in fungus from being 'dripping wet' all the time. What's the point? What's the reason?
As for Mr. Wegehaupt, oh man I'm not going to argue with him!!! He is one of Europe's most respected tortoise keepers. It's like me saying Bill Zovickian doesn't know jack&%$# about radiated or star tortoises!
But we differ when you mention the 'monsoon conditions for 24/7'. Brother, the animals do not get that outside of captivity, so why subject them to it just to grow them up fast? I don't get the reason or logic behind such practices... unless one's goal is to get more saleable animals quickly which--- you are not doing. I'm not trying to be Mr. Natural here, but why is there such a fetish for pushing tortoises to grow up quickly?
One member of this forum used to preach, "keep em dripping wet all the time and they won't pyramid on you". But the animals aren't 'dripping wet' all the time in their natural habitat. His animals were perfectly smooth alright, but then their plastrons were covered in fungus from being 'dripping wet' all the time. What's the point? What's the reason?
As for Mr. Wegehaupt, oh man I'm not going to argue with him!!! He is one of Europe's most respected tortoise keepers. It's like me saying Bill Zovickian doesn't know jack&%$# about radiated or star tortoises!
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