MBD question

[Shaif]

Those of you who have dealt with MBD, how soon can healing/reversal happen? I would assume strengthening a soft shell could take weeks? Months?

I also have a case of BMD in a baby Ibera. Her plastron has gone from being firm to feeling like paper. She/he stopped eating completely for 2 days and definitely looked to be at death's door.
That was 8 days ago. I have been hand feeding her opunta, collard greens, turnip greens, kale, and radicchio (I know it's not the best, but is her favorite food. I coat it with MinerAll with calcium and D3). She is semi-active now. She climbs into my hand to be fed, and initiates feeding at her food bowl occasionally.
I'll take any and all direction to get her back to full health!

PS-- I have an MVB basking spot with output of 3 on the solarmeter. I've also added a second bulb (also MVB) with output of 5. I don't understand what caused her downfall. My temps are 95 basking, 80-85 cool side. Night time 65-75 (Testudo do better with a night time cool down). She was eating like a champ-- always in the food bowl. In fact, my fear is that she spent so much time in the food bowl (which is in the cool side), that she didn't get enough exposure to the MVB. That's why I added another.

Thanks so much.

 

[Markw84]

Those of you who have dealt with MBD, how soon can healing/reversal happen? I would assume strengthening a soft shell could take weeks? Months?

I also have a case of BMD in a baby Ibera. Her plastron has gone from being firm to feeling like paper. She/he stopped eating completely for 2 days and definitely looked to be at death's door.
That was 8 days ago. I have been hand feeding her opunta, collard greens, turnip greens, kale, and radicchio (I know it's not the best, but is her favorite food. I coat it with MinerAll with calcium and D3). She is semi-active now. She climbs into my hand to be fed, and initiates feeding at her food bowl occasionally.
I'll take any and all direction to get her back to full health!

PS-- I have an MVB basking spot with output of 3 on the solarmeter. I've also added a second bulb (also MVB) with output of 5. I don't understand what caused her downfall. My temps are 95 basking, 80-85 cool side. Night time 65-75 (Testudo do better with a night time cool down). She was eating like a champ-- always in the food bowl. In fact, my fear is that she spent so much time in the food bowl (which is in the cool side), that she didn't get enough exposure to the MVB. That's why I added another.

Thanks so much.

providing good UVB is only half the issue. The diet is the rest. Many greens contain oxalates, or phosphorus, etc.. that will bind to calcium and prevent absorption. To combat the start of possible MBD, I would go to a diet that avoids oxalates, and has an overly high calcium to phosphorus ratio. I use a mashed up mix of Mazuri 2:1 cal/phos ratio, with grated oputia 9:1 ratio, chopped orchard grass hay 1.5:1 but great fiber. The Mazuri also adds the D3 which supplements what may be metabolized with the good UVB. I will put that mash on top of greens the tortoise will eat and avoid things high in oxalic acid. Like collards, spinach, watercress, carrots/carrot tops, parsley, etc. My tortoise very quickly come to love the Mazuri mash and will devour it first before getting to the greens. That's why I add so much orcard grass hay - to really bump the fiber and lower the overall protein, and add the opuntia to really boost the calcium.

Unfortunately it seems we have to become nutritionists, botanists, and chemists, to raise healthy tortoises! OR... ask lots of questions on the forum!

 

[Tom]

If its MBD, it can be start reversing as soon as conditions are corrected. MBD happens slowly and they recover slowly from it.

However, this might not be MBD. The symptoms also match what I call "breeder failure syndrome". Most breeders don't soak babies enough and also keep them too dry. This does kidney damage and causes the symptoms you are seeing. Give this a read through and see if it sounds familiar.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

 

[Shaif]

If its MBD, it can be start reversing as soon as conditions are corrected. MBD happens slowly and they recover slowly from it.

However, this might not be MBD. The symptoms also match what I call "breeder failure syndrome". Most breeders don't soak babies enough and also keep them too dry. This does kidney damage and causes the symptoms you are seeing. Give this a read through and see if it sounds familiar.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

Thank you, Tom. As always, your thoughts are invaluable. I don't think this was Hatchling Failure. This baby came from a very good source (Tyler S.), and she was really heathy and active when I got her and several months thereafter. Sadly, the guilt lies on me. I feel absolutely horrible.

 

[Shaif]

providing good UVB is only half the issue. The diet is the rest. Many greens contain oxalates, or phosphorus, etc.. that will bind to calcium and prevent absorption. To combat the start of possible MBD, I would go to a diet that avoids oxalates, and has an overly high calcium to phosphorus ratio. I use a mashed up mix of Mazuri 2:1 cal/phos ratio, with grated oputia 9:1 ratio, chopped orchard grass hay 1.5:1 but great fiber. The Mazuri also adds the D3 which supplements what may be metabolized with the good UVB. I will put that mash on top of greens the tortoise will eat and avoid things high in oxalic acid. Like collards, spinach, watercress, carrots/carrot tops, parsley, etc. My tortoise very quickly come to love the Mazuri mash and will devour it first before getting to the greens. That's why I add so much orcard grass hay - to really bump the fiber and lower the overall protein, and add the opuntia to really boost the calcium.

Unfortunately it seems we have to become nutritionists, botanists, and chemists, to raise healthy tortoises! OR... ask lots of questions on the forum!

This is Awesome info, Mark. Thank you. I do try to force feed Mazuri every day. (S)he hates it, but Ill keep trying. Do you know the Calciumhos ratio for Turnip greens? Is that a decent food? I looked online and came across a list of values on the Tortoise Library. Is that a reputable source? I see that I need to remove the collard greens from my mix.

P.S. On another thread you gave me advice on lighting for my new Animal Plastics enclosure. It arrived yesterday. I'll post pictures as soon as I figure out how to assemble.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

Turnip greens are supposed to have a good ratio. This is my favourite list for checking things like that http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm

 

[Shaif]

This is Awesome info, Mark. Thank you. I do try to force feed Mazuri every day. (S)he hates it, but Ill keep trying. Do you know the Calciumhos ratio for Turnip greens? Is that a decent food? I looked online and came across a list of values on the Tortoise Library. Is that a reputable source? I see that I need to remove the collard greens from my mix.

P.S. On another thread you gave me advice on lighting for my new Animal Plastics enclosure. It arrived yesterday. I'll post pictures as soon as I figure out how to assemble.

Sorry. I had typed this reply yesterday, but somehow it did not post properly.

 

[Shaif]

Turnip greens are supposed to have a good ratio. This is my favourite list for checking things like that http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm

Thank you, Sarah. I've printed it and will keep it handy. Much appreciated!

 

[Markw84]

This is Awesome info, Mark. Thank you. I do try to force feed Mazuri every day. (S)he hates it, but Ill keep trying. Do you know the Calciumhos ratio for Turnip greens? Is that a decent food? I looked online and came across a list of values on the Tortoise Library. Is that a reputable source? I see that I need to remove the collard greens from my mix.

P.S. On another thread you gave me advice on lighting for my new Animal Plastics enclosure. It arrived yesterday. I'll post pictures as soon as I figure out how to assemble.

I'm not suggesting you need to force anything. consistently offering over time along with things your tortoise is already eating well will start shifting things the right way. I was offering ways I use to weight towards a better calcium ratio in the foods by adding things for balance. Turnip greens are great with almost a 5:1 ratio. Others I favor for calcium are grape leaves 4:1 and a higher % of calcium per weight, of course Opuntia, Dandelion with 3:1, and believe it or not - duckweed! If you have a pond with a good, clean source of duckweed to sprinkle on top - duckweed is 30:1 ratio! I just always am aware that most of these sources lack good fiber, so I compensate for that as well.

I do refer to the source Sarah lists, and thing that is a really good one, but really try to cross check as much as possible between multiple source to feel secure. Keep my own nutritional facts spreadsheet as I run across anything related.

 

[Markw84]

Thank you, Tom. As always, your thoughts are invaluable. I don't think this was Hatchling Failure. This baby came from a very good source (Tyler S.), and she was really heathy and active when I got her and several months thereafter. Sadly, the guilt lies on me. I feel absolutely horrible.

Forgot to add above...

@Tom has a good point and does sound very possible. I got 2 hatchling leopards from the same source as you 18 months ago to add to a small group. Took 1 year to get them growing and to hit 50g. Kept in identical enclosures to my Stars and sulcata hatchlings. Every tortoise exploded with growth except those two.

 

[Tom]

Forgot to add above...

@Tom has a good point and does sound very possible. I got 2 hatchling leopards from the same source as you 18 months ago to add to a small group. Took 1 year to get them growing and to hit 50g. Kept in identical enclosures to my Stars and sulcata hatchlings. Every tortoise exploded with growth except those two.

Along with @Markw84 , I don't know how Tyler raises his baby Testudo. Tyler is a friend and a very good guy, but I've never asked how he starts his babies. Does he soak them daily? Are they outdoors all day in warm enough weather, or mostly indoors?

 

[Shaif]

Here's a quick update on my little one--in case someone finds themselves in a similar situation and come across this thread:

I continue to hand feed my baby daily. One would think this might stress her out, but she climbs right into my hand and eats greedily. Her appetite has increased, and she self feeds a few times a day as well. Her plastron is still scary soft. I can feel it move when she moves her back legs. Her stools still look odd-- lighter/ grayish in color and smaller in size with mucus in them. Her stools are very heterogeneous.

She has much more energy and walks normally about the enclosure. She drinks at least once a day.

I know I've got quite a bit of work ahead of me to get her back to health, but I'm still hoping it can be done and will do everything in my power to do so. Two weeks ago, I was certain that she would pass away. Now I'm hopeful that she may recover. Cautiously optimistic.

My new T70 Animal Plastics cage (8ft x 3ft) is assembled, but a glass door was broken, so I'm still waiting for the replacement. I'm not keen to move her just yet anyway--fearful of undue stress right now.

Again, any advice, thoughts, or even shared experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading.

 

[Yvonne G]

It's been a couple years since this thread posted. I'm wondering how the baby has done?

 

[Shaif]

Hi Yvonne! I hope you are doing well!

Thank you for asking. My baby is doing awesome now. She’s growing huge, eats a ton and is very active. She is also quite friendly and curious. Much less timid than my other 2. She’s over 300 grams now!