Maltitol & other additives bad for tortoises?

[Alex77]

Hope someone out there can help even though I'm not on this forum often...

Today I gave my tortoise a little bit of echinacea purpurea, e.g. 3 drops of a mild 'organic' tincture. I normally do this once or twice in winter cos it's virus season. It's not known whether it helps their immunity like it does in humans, but since it's not known to have any adverse effects either, I usually give this figuring it cannot hurt. She normally tolerates it very well.

Today I used a different brand than usual and Gaia seems to be having a bad reaction to it (she seems agitated and fearful) and after looking at the bottle of this so called 'organic, alcohol free' product I noticed that it lists "Maltitol" a sugar alcohol, in the contents, as well as "Sodium benzoate" and some other preservatives. Is this dangerous for tortoises? Like, should I be rushing her to a vet?

I should add that sometimes, she gets agitated for no apparent reason (like all our torts do) and after putting her in water just now, she seems more calm.... that is why I am unsure what to do next...

Sources re: safety of Echinacea in tortoises, for those who are interested:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?catID=101
http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/testudo/v6/v6n5chitty

 

[Alex77]

Hope someone out there can help even though I'm not on this forum often...

Today I gave my tortoise a little bit of echinacea purpurea, e.g. 3 drops of a mild 'organic' tincture. I normally do this once or twice in winter as it's virus season. It's not known whether it helps their immunity like it does in humans, but since it's not known to have any adverse effects either, I figure it cannot hurt. Gaia the tortoise normally tolerates it very well.

Today I used a different brand than usual and Gaia seems to be having a bad reaction to it (she seems agitated and fearful) and after looking at the bottle of this so called 'organic, alcohol free' product I noticed that it lists "Maltitol" a sugar alcohol, in the contents, as well as "Sodium benzoate" and some other preservatives. Is this dangerous for tortoises? Like, should I be rushing her to a vet?

I should add that sometimes, she gets agitated for no apparent reason (like all our torts do) and after putting her in water just now, she seems more calm.... that is why I am unsure what to do next...

She's currently 3 years old with a perfect weight index, and is about 4,5" length.

Sources re: safety of Echinacea in tortoises, for those who are interested:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?catID=101
http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/testudo/v6/v6n5chitty

 

[Alex77]

Okay well, I just offered her some salad and she went straight for it, so her appetite's normal now too. I will assume this means all is okay unless I hear otherwise from you guys...

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I personally wouldn't give her anymore stuff like that. She's a tortoise, they are different than us. Sounds bad to me, but I really don't know

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

Very few toxicity studies have actually been preformed with tortoises. As far as I know, there is not a known concern with these additives but that doesn't say much.

Herbal products are generally quite poorly regulated and known to have significant variability in composition between bottles, even from the same brand. You may not even be getting the plant matter you think you are getting, additives aside.

Winter is not tortoise virus season. Keep your tortoises warm to help their immune function, but don't give them herbal remedies. There is little evidence of this being effective in humans, there is no reason at all to apply it to tortoises.

The risk here is entirely unknown, but there is no reason to suspect a benefit so I'm not sure what would motivate you using this or similar products.

 

[Alex77]

Hi Sarah. Thanks for your input. I am a bit confused though, because I thought that my first post made quite clear what my reasons were for having given this to my tort. If you look at the bottom, you'll see I also provided sources to look at. So, I am not entirely sure why you're "not sure what motivated" me to do this. But just to sum it up: the first link states that echinacea the plant is safe for tortoises, and the second from the British Chelonia Group page states that echinacea and bee propolis have been observed to have some health benefits in torts with respiratory issues. It's a bit sparse though so if anyone reading this has found evidence to the contrary, I'd be glad to read it.

As for the questions about echinacea being of uncertain quality and possibly fake, I am afraid this is only really a problem in English speaking nations due to their governments' refusal to take herbs seriously. In Germany where I am based, herbal remedies are as well-regulated as medicines. As you'll see from this summary of German pharmaceutical law:

"on August 24, 1976, Germany passed the Second Medicines Act ( Arzneimittelgesetz 1976, or AMG 76) and required that the entire range of medicines in the pharmaceutical market (including conventional drugs, as well as medicinal plants and phytomedicines) be reviewed by scientific committees. [...] The regulations were designed so that the manufacturer had to provide proof of pharmaceutical quality for traditional herbal ingredients [...] All drugs that came into the market after the law went into effect (1978) had to be evaluated according to the procedures for new drug approvals. This applied to herbal and conventional drugs alike. The manufacturer must apply every five years for an extension of the drug registration. Proof of quality, safety, and effectiveness applied equally" Etc.

Actually, echinacea and other plants are so well standardized that they are often given on prescription here in lieu of chemical drugs, but in this case I used a store-bought brand that didn't come from my doc. So I have no qualms about the echinacea itself, though I understand why some would be fearful of it if they live in the US, which doesn't regulate its herbs half as well as Germany does.

Any further input about those additives would be appreciated though, if anyone has it...

 

[Alex77]

"Winter is not tortoise virus season. Keep your tortoises warm to help their immune function,"

When I mentioned "virus season" I was of course, referring to the fact that the humans around Gaia get sick with viruses more often, not to the fact that Gaia is going to catch them from other torts. (She'd have to be quite the escape artist to get out of her tank and find others of her kind ;-)

The warmth thing is useful advice, which I am already following... but are you sure that torts can't catch colds from human viruses, ever?

 

[Tom]

The only animals that can catch a cold or flu from a human are apes. Seen this many times. Even monkeys don't catch them from us. Reptiles? Not a chance.

Alex, Sarah spelled it out pretty well. There is no research into the effects of these sorts of "herbal remedies" with tortoises or any other reptile that any of us are aware of. You are experimenting in totally "uncharted waters" there, so to speak. What I think she was trying to say is that no one else is offering those types of supplements to our tortoises and all of our tortoises are thriving, so why take a risk with your tortoises life and health on something that is totally unnecessary, probably offers no benefit, and is not known to even be safe?

A good varied diet, hydration, and correct temps and conditions are all your tortoise needs to remain healthy.

 

[Alex77]

Okay, well that all sounds true enough .... although I do wonder how the avian flu came to be a problem if viruses can't be transferred outside of the primate species?

I do still feel that Sarah missed the point of my original post, which you seem to have missed as well: you both are saying that "echinacea offers no known benefits and isn't known to be safe", when I have posted a clear (although anecdotal) statement to the contrary, written by yet another reputable tort organization. I understand fully that you want to warn people away from undertaking dangerous experiments that could hurt their pets, and I certainly won't be trying any of those myself, but it borders on coming across as dogmatic when you dismiss what the other experts say without due consideration. Do you know of any good reason why the BCG would be lying? If so, we should all know about it.

Same goes for the scientific echinacea studies that have been undertaken in Germany over the last century, all of which have all been very clear that echinacea and other herbs do have known benefits for humans (NOT tortoises). Which is what I was taking issue with in Sarah's post, as it also came across as dogmatic.

Gaia is doing well now by the way, in case anyone is interested.

 

[Tom]

Alex, I can find you 15 research papers to support any claim I want. I can also find you 15 research papers to refute any claim I want. The world is full of snake oil salesmen and I've run across quite a few of them. I just don't subscribe to the latest fads of magic drops that are going to make everything all better, when there ain't nothin' wrong in the first place. If you want to read up and spend your time researching about the latest and greatest herbal products and try them all out on yourself, I say go for it. Have a good time.

Myself? I'm going to remain skeptical of studies, and of chemical compounds that are organic in nature or not, that I simply don't need. I don't take any of the latest and greatest herbal remedies and I've been perfectly healthy my whole life. I'm one of those people who hardly ever gets sick. Some people seem to want to search for answers for problems they don't have. That's not me. If that makes me dogmatic or dismissive, then my plea is guilty as charged.

As it relates to tortoises, I raised babies who had their own babies. Now THIER babies are having healthy babies. I did all of this without herbal supplements or anything like that. I add some plain old calcium carbonate to the diet of the females for egg shell development, and given their diet, I probably don't even need to do that. I don't see how echinacea, or any other similar product, is going to improve any of this despite what research has been done, and also because of all the research that says it does nothing.

Now that we both know where we stand, I'll get back to your initial question again: I know of no research one way or the other regarding the safety of any of the chemicals you mentioned pertaining to reptiles. What I do know is that none of my tortoises get "agitated" for no reason, and I've never considered whether or not I should take any of my tortoises to the vet after an apparent reaction to an herbal remedy, because I've never given them an herbal remedy and they've never had a bad "reaction" to one.

 

[Alex77]

"I can find you 15 research papers to support any claim I want." Sure - but research papers written for a government which is a renowned leader in herbal remedies worldwide, are a different kettle of fish... or so I'd humbly submit. But of course, you're entitled to your views which come across as, erm, a little more opinionated than factual. Although if it works for you, you should go with it, as you say.

I don't want to sound like a broken record but: you still haven't offered much of anything by way of a reply to what the Chelonian Group says, so I'd say that I stick with my original view, which (for the record) was that herbs don't do any harm, and probably don't do any good. Not once do I mention that I was planning to experiment willy nilly on myself or anyone else - that is something you brought into the discussion from your own prejudices.

Tom, I do respect your experience as a breeder... it's just that I am a little stunned by how willing you and some others seem to be, to come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who offers a peep of a suggestion that other techniques might also work, or be as good as what you use.

As a good pet owner, I will continue to stick with the conservative strategy and (as I've said about 3 times now) I do NOT plan to test anything on Gaia or myself without finding out if it has a risk, first. I guess, the difference between you and I is that taking a conservative strategy towards my pet's health doesn't mean that I take a conservative attitude towards everything else, as well.

 

[Tom]

"I can find you 15 research papers to support any claim I want." Sure - but research papers written for a government which is a renowned leader in herbal remedies worldwide, are a different kettle of fish... or so I'd humbly submit. But of course, you're entitled to your views which come across as, erm, a little more opinionated than factual. Although if it works for you, you should go with it, as you say.

I don't want to sound like a broken record but: you still haven't offered much of anything by way of a reply to what the Chelonian Group says, so I'd say that I stick with my original view, which (for the record) was that herbs don't do any harm, and probably don't do any good. Not once do I mention that I was planning to experiment willy nilly on myself or anyone else - that is something you brought into the discussion from your own prejudices.

However I do respect your experience as a breeder... it's just that I am a little stunned by how willing you and certain others around here are, to come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who dares to offer a peep of a suggestion that other techniques might also work, or be as good as what you use.

As a good pet owner, I will continue to stick with the conservative strategy and (as I've said about 3 times now) do NOT plan to test anything on Gaia or myself without finding out if it has a risk, first. I guess, the difference between you and I is that taking a conservative strategy towards my pet's health doesn't mean I take a conservative attitude towards everything else, as well.

Well said and good points.

History has proven that governments are not trustworthy. As a German, you know this darn well. Do not think I am pointing fingers from higher ground though, as my government is certainly guilty of some atrocities, as well. So forgive me if I'm not willing to just follow what government says, or what their paid scientists say.

On the matter of herbal remedies, "organic" foods, and "all natural" products and matters of this nature, yes, I will admit to being opinionated. This is my wife's profession and all of it is a game of semantics, technicalities and mis-direction. I've seen so much dishonesty and exaggeration all in the name of outselling one's competitors, or making a few pennies more per sale, at the expense of quality and with disregard for the health and well being of the end user. So while I am opinionated on these matters, my opinion is not unfounded or baseless. At least in this country, these terms are used as marketing tools and the limits of what is allowed or acceptable are pushed to their very limits daily. Everyone wants to separate everyone else from their money, and most of them don't mind bending to truth a little to get it done. I hope this provides a little insight into why I make the case I make.

Now again: If most of the tortoise owning public is not using this product yet we still have healthy tortoises, and you yourself have doubts about the product's safety to the point where you are ready to run to the vets office; why use them? Your tortoise is not going to catch a human "cold or flu", so why take this risk?

 

[Big Charlie]

"I can find you 15 research papers to support any claim I want." Sure - but research papers written for a government which is a renowned leader in herbal remedies worldwide, are a different kettle of fish... or so I'd humbly submit. But of course, you're entitled to your views which come across as, erm, a little more opinionated than factual. Although if it works for you, you should go with it, as you say.

I don't want to sound like a broken record but: you still haven't offered much of anything by way of a reply to what the Chelonian Group says, so I'd say that I stick with my original view, which (for the record) was that herbs don't do any harm, and probably don't do any good. Not once do I mention that I was planning to experiment willy nilly on myself or anyone else - that is something you brought into the discussion from your own prejudices.

Tom, I do respect your experience as a breeder... it's just that I am a little stunned by how willing you and some others seem to be, to come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who offers a peep of a suggestion that other techniques might also work, or be as good as what you use.

As a good pet owner, I will continue to stick with the conservative strategy and (as I've said about 3 times now) I do NOT plan to test anything on Gaia or myself without finding out if it has a risk, first. I guess, the difference between you and I is that taking a conservative strategy towards my pet's health doesn't mean that I take a conservative attitude towards everything else, as well.

I believe that Echinacea helps immune function in humans but there is no support for it in the US medical community. There isn't enough regulation on herbals in the US, which makes it impossible to know if what is inside the bottle is what it says on the label. Since you already know that echinacea is safe for tortoises, why not try to find a preparation that is missing those additives for next time?

Whether or not you choose to use it, I don't think anyone should assume a superior attitude and refer to it as a fad. I hear the same thing all day long from people who think my low carb diet is a fad rather than something that keeps me healthy.

 

[Speedy-1]

I am going to stick with my tried and true Mazuri pellets , and a variety of greens . I am not saying its wrong , but why would I want to make things more complicated , when I am having good results with the tried and true diet regimen ? This way I have fewer variables to consider if something should go wrong !

 

[DutchieAmanda]

It's really interesting to read that Germany has some strict regulations on herbal medicines. Does this apply to human meds and veterinary meds? I'm from The Netherlands, and here there's also hardly any control or regulation for "alternative" medicines.

As for the herbs: herbs were the base for current medicine, and have known to contain ingredients that are also present in our current meds. I will therefore not state they are rubbish or dangerous perse.

In The Netherlands veterinary medicines have to be registered for certain species (dog, cat, cow, etc). Then you know it's safe for that species. Medicines that are safe for dogs can be lethal to cats. A strict regulation on herbs (for humans, furry pets?) does not neccessarily mean they are safe and working for reptiles. Do you know if your drops are also registered for reptiles (probably not because the costs of registration don't outweigh the benefits)?

 

[DPtortiose]

Sources re: safety of Echinacea in tortoises, for those who are interested:

http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?catID=101
http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/testudo/v6/v6n5chitty

Both of these sources really don't contribute to your point in my opinion. The first one only states that the plant itself is safe to feed, it does not speak about the benefits of any concentrated form. The second one is highly anecdotal evidence, which can be an interesting starting point for proper research. But this shouldn't serve as proof that this would be safe to use.

Further a quick googling reveals that the 'benefits' of Echinacea aren't as strong as one might think. With more than a few reports stating that Echinacea products aren't more effective than a placebo product and with each brand containing different compositions. Making this medicine unreliable and not likely to be effective.

A few of these sources:

https://www.clinicalkey.com/#!/cont.../pii/S0091743509002035?showall=true&referrer=
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091743509002035
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(07)70160-3/abstract
https://www.thieme-connect.de/DOI/DOI?10.1055/s-2007-993766

On a less specific note, using preventing medicine is generally a very bad idea. Because of the following reasons: First, most medicines are poisonous and will harm your body as much as any disease. Secondly diseases can rapidly become resistant to medicines with over use. Making the medicine useless and turning relative harmless condition quite seriously. Taking medicine preventively will hasten this process immensely.

Thirdly, in this thread ‘disease’ was mostly synonymous with 'virus', which is incorrect. What we view as the common cold can be caused by bacteria and different strains of viruses. We've yet have to find drugs that are an effective treatment for both these (wildly) different organisms. So taking medicine to prevent a common cold is highly ineffective. The second link you provided stated improvement was found with an bacterial infection, nothing was stated about viral infections.

And finally it's very unwise to use products tested on humans on tortoises, even if the effects are the same you know nothing on the dose that it should be given. This is especially risky with an product that is has a widely inconsistent composition as Echinacea products. Everything can be highly poisonous in the right dose, even water. Since you've got no idea what a correct dose should be (in the highly unlikely chance that the stuff even works) this is highly risky.

Ironically tortoises do doctors themselves with certain plant species. Wild specimens of T. hermanni have been observed to eat poisonous plants on accession. Scientist think they do this to rid them of internal parasites. Leave doctoring to them or a vet would be my advice.