leopard tortoise shell getting softer

[natik]

I really need an advice. Over a month ago I bought 3 leopard tortoise hatchlings. All seemed healthy, but one of the tortoise's shell (his name is Smiley) was on the softer side comparing to other two. Over this month his shell has became softer, it feels like a soft thin plastic. It doesn't leave any dents, it bounces back if I lightly squeeze it. I bought them on reptile show and the seller told me that they are all from different hatches. Smiley is a pardalis pardalis (he has 2 marks on each scute) the others are have only one mark, Smiley is the smallest of all three.
His appetite is the best out of 3, he is very active... I soak them every day, feed spring mix and dandelions and add Ca and Vit D every other day. Twice a week they get cactus or yellow squash. They have UVB during the day (in addition to sunlight in the afternoons) and heating lamp at night, they mostly sleep in the hiding with the moist bedding near the heat source, the temp near the heating lamp is 100-110, and about 80 on the cooler side. I live in FL so the humidity shouldn't be an issue, but I make sure that their bedding is moist.
I've read all about the hatchling failure syndrome on this forum, but can't seem to find an answer. I am very worried that his shell is dissolving, any thoughts? Anything else I can do? Can he be just younger than others and he is just building his shell. I've read somewhere that the shells are soft when they are born. If it's true, then when should they become harder?
I'll appreciate any help or criticism.

 

[tortdad]

@tortadise


0.0.1 Redfoot (Spike)
0.0.1 Cherryhead Redfoot (Bruce Wayne)
1.0 Sulcata (Hal Jordan)

 

[wellington]

all i know about leopards it that they are a grassland species. i would feed him mostly grasses instead of just spring mix.

Most young leopards will not eat grass. This is not the soft shell problem. A shell doesn't get softer before it gets hard. If you can give him more natural sunlight this may help, but be prepared that this one just might not make it. @Yvonne G may be able to give you some ideas of what to do.

 

[russian/sulcata/tortoise]

Most young leopards will not eat grass. This is not the soft shell problem. A shell doesn't get softer before it gets hard. If you can give him more natural sunlight this may help, but be prepared that this one just might not make it. @Yvonne G may be able to give you some ideas of what to do.

thank you for correcting my mistake

 

[mike taylor]

My leopard did the same thing the first year of his life. Put him by himself in an enclosure . Soak him daily and give calcium with no d3 . Try and get him outside for at least half a day . Natural sun light is best . Look on Tom's care sheets and feed him good weeds high in vitamin and calcium . Don't give up on him he can pull out . Greg T . Fixed my tortoise so give him a pm I'm sure he would be glad to help .

 

[ascott]

I would be careful not to overdo calcium...it can affect the way the tortoise absorbs other needed minerals.....

Calcium, Phosphorous and Vitamin D3
Bones require a specific ratio of calcium and phosphorous (in humans a ratio of 1:1 is ideal for absorption......most say 2:1 for bone growth). This is provided by diet and Vitamin D3 helps us use the calcium. Recent research shows that D3 is also very important for immune function and is of benefit in auto-immune disease and as a preventative measure for cancer (research abstracts availablehere). In the past, the focus has been on this ratio. And indeed too much phosphorous is a problem. The typical tortoise diet is abundant in phosphorous and low in calcium. This has been shown to be a major contributing factor in Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD) and Pyramiding. The most common recommendation has been to dust all food with calcium carbonate powder. While on the surface this appears to be a logical solution, its flawed and can have serious health consequences.

Two other minerals play critical roles in calcium metabolism...magnesium and boron. Research shows these are very important in preventing osteoporosis in humans. Boron is only needed in trace amounts but is important. However a 2:1 ratio of calcium to magnesium is very important. In Humans research is showing that if magnesium levels are too low, high amounts of calcium or vitamin D supplementation can lead to calcification of the soft tissues or to kidney stone formation. It is possible that prolonged high amounts of calcium (higher than a 2:1 calcium-phosphorus ratio) and supplemental vitamin D can lead to abnormal calcification of long bones in children or to hypercalcemia (high blood calcium levels) and soft tissue calcification in adults, as well as a decrease in bone strength. Recent research using leopard tortoise hatchling show this to be a real problem for tortoises as well.

To counter act this and to get the calcium/phosphorous ratio to a healthy 2:1 , its is often recommended to dust all food with calcium (usually calcium carbonate). While superficially it does seem to have benefit, it has its own problems. Too much calcium results in secondary deficiencies of zinc, copper and iodine, mal-absorption of essential fatty acids, and formation of calcium-containing bladder stones. Lack of calcium results in soft shells that often accompany pyramiding.

This research focuses on the hazards of over supplementing with calcium carbonate. It is generally known that too much calcium results in secondary deficiencies of zinc, copper and iodine, mal-absorption of essential fatty acids, and formation of calcium-containing bladder stones. However this recent research project tries to quantify the amount that is needed. Following is the abstract:

Vet Rec. 2005 Jun 25;156(26):831-5.
Influence of the calcium content of the diet offered to leopard tortoises
(Geochelone pardalis).
Fledelius B, Jorgensen GW, Jensen HE, Brimer L.

Laboratory of Toxicology, Department of Veterinary Pathobiology, Royal
Veterinary and Agricultural University, 9 Ridebanevej, dk-1870 Frederiksberg C,
Copenhagen, Denmark.

Twenty-four juvenile leopard tortoises were divided into four groups of six; one
group was fed a basic low-calcium feed for six months, and the other three
groups were fed the same basic diet supplemented with one, three and nine times
the amount of calcium recommended as a supplement to the diet of reptiles. The
animals' bone mineral content and bone mineral density were estimated by dual
energy x-ray absorptiometry, and blood samples were taken at the start and at
the conclusion of the study. One tortoise from each group was examined
postmortem. There was a clear depletion of calcium in the body of the tortoises
receiving no calcium supplement, and the shell of the tortoises receiving the
recommended calcium supplement did not calcify to the extent expected. The
tortoises that received three times the recommended calcium supplementation had
the highest growth rate and were thriving. However, metastatic calcifications
were observed postmortem in the two groups that were given the highest doses of
calcium.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 15980135 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



The main flaw of the paper is that the role of other minerals were overlooked. However a few important conclusions about supplementing are apparent. The most important is what happened to the over-supplemented group. The overall appearance was that it was a very healthy group of tortoises with excellent shell density. However on microscopic examination many of the organs and other tissues were being calcified. So while casual exam (the cornerstone for some breeders and experts is "'the eyes are clear,tongue is pink, stools firm and well formed, the tortoise is active and eating well so therefore its healthy" ) may show what appears to be a healthy tortoise, it is erroneous.

By far the best way to ensure a healthy tortoise is to feed a wide variety of high calcium foods. And if you must rely on grocery store greens pick the ones with the most bio-available calcium such as turnip greens and kale. Also supplement with powders such as plantain and dandelion. By relying on whole foods ((such as those found here) to supply the minerals, its very hard to have mineral imbalances and deficiencies. It is also virtually impossible to over supplement.

For your reference...

 

[natik]

Thanks everybody for answering. I was trying to give them grass as well as mulberry leaves, hibiscus flowers and leaves and so on. Those are too difficult for them to bite, they try to eat it, but without much success. As for flowers, they don't have any interest in it whatsoever.
Like I said, they do get sun in the afternoon, but they are in a screen-in porch, so the sun is going through the screen, not sure how much UV they get in this way. I'll try to put them outside more, will finish the enclosure this weekend.
What about Vit E? I've read on this forum that it helps to absorb Ca. I bought liquid Vit E in capsules and tried to dissolve it in their soaking water, but it seems to be fat soluble, so it just stains the bottom and doesn't dissolve. I was also soaking them in baby food for several weeks, didn't seem to do anything. Do I have to continue it since Smiley is eating well? Do they get enough Vit E from soaking in baby food? I didn't notice them to drink soaking water much.

Mike, you mentioned to put Smiley separately from others, what would be the reason to separate them? He gets enough food, he is the first to start eating and the last to finish. Are there any other reasons to separate him other than food?

Too many questions, but I'm just worried about this little one, my kids will be heartbroken if Smiley wouldn't make it:-(

 

[Tyanna]

Mike, you mentioned to put Smiley separately from others, what would be the reason to separate them? He gets enough food, he is the first to start eating and the last to finish. Are there any other reasons to separate him other than food?

my thought would be you would separate them just incase he might have something that the others could "catch" and the care for a "sick" tortoise would be a tad different than for ones who are not. Easier to keep an eye on as well.

 

[Delilah1623]

My baby redfoot was having trouble biting big leaves so I chop it up for him really tiny so he can get lots of variety. You could try this if he's having trouble eating the big leaves to help him get a good variety.

 

[ascott]

Thanks everybody for answering. I was trying to give them grass as well as mulberry leaves, hibiscus flowers and leaves and so on. Those are too difficult for them to bite, they try to eat it, but without much success. As for flowers, they don't have any interest in it whatsoever.
Like I said, they do get sun in the afternoon, but they are in a screen-in porch, so the sun is going through the screen, not sure how much UV they get in this way. I'll try to put them outside more, will finish the enclosure this weekend.
What about Vit E? I've read on this forum that it helps to absorb Ca. I bought liquid Vit E in capsules and tried to dissolve it in their soaking water, but it seems to be fat soluble, so it just stains the bottom and doesn't dissolve. I was also soaking them in baby food for several weeks, didn't seem to do anything. Do I have to continue it since Smiley is eating well? Do they get enough Vit E from soaking in baby food? I didn't notice them to drink soaking water much.

Mike, you mentioned to put Smiley separately from others, what would be the reason to separate them? He gets enough food, he is the first to start eating and the last to finish. Are there any other reasons to separate him other than food?

Too many questions, but I'm just worried about this little one, my kids will be heartbroken if Smiley wouldn't make it:-(

Delilah1623 has the perfect idea....you can dice up the pieces into small bite size pieces...even if that means a quick run through a food processor for a moment or two...or actually just cutting up by hand really really really small....then spritz it all with water to help it go down easier...lol...

 

[Tom]

Do you know the history of these guys? How they were started as hatchlings will give you the best clue about what might be going on.

You do not need baby food or vitamin E soaks for a tortoise that is eating.

What sort of UV bulb are you using indoors?

The screen will filter out a lot of your UV. Only a UV meter will tell you if they are still getting enough.

What is the humidity in your indoor enclosure? Just because it is humid outside does not mean it is humid inside your house under hot light bulbs. I think 110 is too hot and potentially damaging to the carapace. I would raise that lamp a little higher.

Two dots do not necessarily make it a SA leopard. There are many mixes out there in the world and sometimes they will throw a baby with two dots per scute. It is only a South African if it was bred from two known South African parents.

You've put yourself in a bit of a tough spot. If the one is truly a SA leopard, and it sounds like it might be from the behavior, they really should not be housed with the quieter more subdued regular leopards. So in that case, I would suggest separating them. On the other hand, I wouldn't want the other ones housed as a pair. Pairs can be problematic. Best to separate all three. Or possibly get another regular leopard to make a trio, and let Mr. SA live alone. I leave that part up to you.

 

[natik]

Do you know the history of these guys? How they were started as hatchlings will give you the best clue about what might be going on.

You do not need baby food or vitamin E soaks for a tortoise that is eating.

What sort of UV bulb are you using indoors?

The screen will filter out a lot of your UV. Only a UV meter will tell you if they are still getting enough.

What is the humidity in your indoor enclosure? Just because it is humid outside does not mean it is humid inside your house under hot light bulbs. I think 110 is too hot and potentially damaging to the carapace. I would raise that lamp a little higher.

Two dots do not necessarily make it a SA leopard. There are many mixes out there in the world and sometimes they will throw a baby with two dots per scute. It is only a South African if it was bred from two known South African parents.

You've put yourself in a bit of a tough spot. If the one is truly a SA leopard, and it sounds like it might be from the behavior, they really should not be housed with the quieter more subdued regular leopards. So in that case, I would suggest separating them. On the other hand, I wouldn't want the other ones housed as a pair. Pairs can be problematic. Best to separate all three. Or possibly get another regular leopard to make a trio, and let Mr. SA live alone. I leave that part up to you.

No, I don't know the history, I bought them on the show and they all were the same price, the seller just told us that they are from different hatches, he didn't even mention that they might be different varieties ( i don't think he knew that much about leopards).

The UV I am using is the one recommended on this forum, it's ZooMed powersun.

I don't have the humidity meter, but the substrate is constantly moist and outside humidity in the air is about 80% (according to the internet) and they are outside, just in the screened-in enclosure, so it is pretty much outdoor (it's still warm in FL).

The temperature does get up to 110 degrees right under the lamp, but they are rarely there, mostly they are under the hideout box with wet substrate or on the other side of the enclosure, and it's around 80-85 degrees there.

I don't care if Smiley is a SA or regular leopard. He just looks little different and I thought it might have something to do with his carapace.
We got three leopards exactly for the reasons mentioned by you. We wanted more than one and we didn't want them to fight. So we got 3 hoping that it's going to be 2 females and 1 male (it's a long shot, I know). For now, they are too small and there is no aggression whatsoever. Once they are bigger and the behavior changes, then we might need to separate them. Though I might consider separating Smiley due to his conditions, I just need to buy another heating and UV bulbs.

So no baby food any more. Should I add some vitamin complex to their food? Someone mentioned that they just crush regular vitamins and add once or twice a week to their food. I tried it couple times, but it makes leaves bitter and looks like torts are not really eager to eat it.

 

[natik]

Delilah1623 has the perfect idea....you can dice up the pieces into small bite size pieces...even if that means a quick run through a food processor for a moment or two...or actually just cutting up by hand really really really small....then spritz it all with water to help it go down easier...lol...

I tried to cut grass into very small pieces, but it seems like they have hard time to pick it from the dish, it's much easier for them to bite from the whole leaf.
But I'll try it again. I normally give them some weeds and grass from the backyard in the morning before going to work. I'm not sure they actually eat it, I usually pick it and discard in the evening when I soak them and give the spring mix.

 

[natik]

What about the pallets? I bough a zoomed grassland tortoise food and tried to feed them at the very beginning, but they totally ignored it. Are those better than spring mix? Should I try to push them? For now I have plenty of fresh food for them, but is the dry food more beneficial than the fresh I'm feeding with?

 

[ascott]

What about the pallets? I bough a zoomed grassland tortoise food and tried to feed them at the very beginning, but they totally ignored it. Are those better than spring mix? Should I try to push them? For now I have plenty of fresh food for them, but is the dry food more beneficial than the fresh I'm feeding with?

The spring mix is good to mix in with the pellets....I would moisten the pellets with hot water so they turn into more of a mush and then I would mix that with some of the finely cut up spring mix...I would continue to offer...and once you offer it..walk away...they will also like more of the dark leafy greens than grass...and once they are eating then you can reintroduce the food in larger pieces...just my opinion here...

 

[natik]

The spring mix is good to mix in with the pellets....I would moisten the pellets with hot water so they turn into more of a mush and then I would mix that with some of the finely cut up spring mix...I would continue to offer...and once you offer it..walk away...they will also like more of the dark leafy greens than grass...and once they are eating then you can reintroduce the food in larger pieces...just my opinion here...

I appreciate your opinion. Do you think it's better for them? Like I said, I don't anticipate any lack of fresh food here, it's Florida. The hibiscus always has flowers and unlimited supply of leafs, plus cactus, grasses and so on... But if pellets are better, then I'll start offering more .

 

[Delilah1623]

Is it a smooth dish? My little guy has some trouble eating from a glazed dish. I feed him in a little pile on a slate rock so he can get some traction with those tiny little legs.

 

[tortadise]

I really need an advice. Over a month ago I bought 3 leopard tortoise hatchlings. All seemed healthy, but one of the tortoise's shell (his name is Smiley) was on the softer side comparing to other two. Over this month his shell has became softer, it feels like a soft thin plastic. It doesn't leave any dents, it bounces back if I lightly squeeze it. I bought them on reptile show and the seller told me that they are all from different hatches. Smiley is a pardalis pardalis (he has 2 marks on each scute) the others are have only one mark, Smiley is the smallest of all three.
His appetite is the best out of 3, he is very active... I soak them every day, feed spring mix and dandelions and add Ca and Vit D every other day. Twice a week they get cactus or yellow squash. They have UVB during the day (in addition to sunlight in the afternoons) and heating lamp at night, they mostly sleep in the hiding with the moist bedding near the heat source, the temp near the heating lamp is 100-110, and about 80 on the cooler side. I live in FL so the humidity shouldn't be an issue, but I make sure that their bedding is moist.
I've read all about the hatchling failure syndrome on this forum, but can't seem to find an answer. I am very worried that his shell is dissolving, any thoughts? Anything else I can do? Can he be just younger than others and he is just building his shell. I've read somewhere that the shells are soft when they are born. If it's true, then when should they become harder?
I'll appreciate any help or criticism.

Hydration is good. But keeping the bedding moist is typically not. How far up is the bottom of the UVB from the top of the substrate?

 

[Tom]

If Smiley is an SA leopard the behavior matters now, not just at maturity. There does not have to be overt biting or ramming for the other tortoises to feel intimidated by him.

I would not use human vitamins for a reptile. I'd get a reptile vitamin supplement and use a tiny sprinkle once a week. Same thing with a calcium supplement, but twice a week on that one. You only need a small amount and it helps to mix it all in well.

I wouldn't bother with grass for regular leopards. Look for broadleaf weeds and succulents. Any new food will need to be introduced slowly over a long period of time. Few food will be eaten the first few times they are seen. I would soak one ZooMed pellet and mix that all in with a big pile of greens. Once they start eating that, then you can try adding two pellets, and so on...

 

[natik]

Hydration is good. But keeping the bedding moist is typically not. How far up is the bottom of the UVB from the top of the substrate?

about 10-12 inches, it's enough to keep the temp at 100 right under the lamp (again, it's warm here, the temp outside is about 80 daytime and 70 at night)
The bedding is dry under the lamp, the enclosure it tilted down from the lamp, so the substrate is moist to the touch but not soaked in the whole enclosure except under the heater.