Katylin???

skottip

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
Messages
272
Location (City and/or State)
Florida
This may seem like a weird post for some.others, not so much. I am a tortoise breeder. I have produced over 1,000 babies. I am not a rookie, however I feel like one now. My " male" radiated tortoise that has been a male for many years decided to nest about a week ago. "It" dug for about 3 hours into the night. No eggs, abandoned nest. Has not tried since. Has been cold for Florida. Ok, as far as I am concerned, it's a male. Lol. Longish tail, concaved plasteron. Male! Lol. I have friends in the industry whom I am sure you all know they say visually it looks more male than female but because it nested it has to be a female. I might go for x rays next week too see if there are any eggs but figured I would come here first. All opinions are greatly appreciated! Ps. It is 13+ inches scl.

image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,265
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
I have seen some in-betweens with other species.

I once received a sulcata with the classic "U" shaped anal scutes, tiny gulars, a small head, no concavity… and a 3" long tail tucked to the side. Everyone who saw it swore it was female right up until I showed them the tail.

Years ago I raised a group of three young sulcatas together. For almost nine years, I was convinced I had two females and a male. The dominant male humped the other two regularly. Each "female" had small gulars, a small tail, the "U" shape, no plastron concavity, and each female behaved very female too. At around 9 years old, I discovered that the larger of my two females was actually a male when the two boys were locked in battle trying to kill each other. I could see the dust and here the banging and shoving from all the way across the 5 acre ranch.

It appears that the presence of a dominant male can suppress the secondary sexual characteristics of other males. I've seen this other times since then.

I have never seen this with females looking male though, and I have never seen any male turn around and dig with its back feet, as if nesting.

Please post the x-rays pics and keep us updated on this unusual case.
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,655
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
LOL, mind blower I bet when you seen him, um her dig.
I have a leopard that by most guesses looks female. Some would even bet it's female. All actions with this one and my proven female says the one in question is male. S/he does have a long tail like a male, but that's it. I'm still waiting to figure it out 100%
Have you ever actually seen his male part? Or have you always just assumed( safely you would of thought) it was a male cause it had all the visuals of one?
They can always keep you on your toes, right LOL
Good luck figuring it out. Please let us know what it truely is if the mystery is ever solved please.
 

tortadise

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Messages
9,560
Location (City and/or State)
Tropical South Texas
With radiata I'd get it scoped. They are typical "swinger" sex animals. I could of sworn mine was a female and ended up male after being scoped.
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,405
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
There are cases of other species of animals where the reproductive organs don't match the outward signs of the sex of the animal - bulls with a uterus, and such. I think having the animal scoped is a good suggestion.
 

zovick

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
3,386
I can't tell much about how deep the plastral concavity is on that tortoise, but it appears pretty substantial. Also the supracaudal scute looks like that of a male. The two anal scutes are also male-ish in shape. The tail is the only thing which doesn't suggest its being a male to me. It appears to be too small for the stated size of the tortoise. It may be that the tortoise has abnormal gonads which are affecting the expression/appearance of the secondary sexual characteristics. A cancer of one type or another is a possibility which could affect hormone production in this animal. My recommendation would be to have it endoscoped by an experienced chelonian endoscopist (as also suggested by Yvonne and Kelly).
 
  • Like
Reactions: ayS

deadheadvet

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Sep 5, 2011
Messages
813
Location (City and/or State)
Cary, NC
Looks like there is a significant shell fungus on the entire plastron.
 

zovick

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
3,386
Looks like there is a significant shell fungus on the entire plastron.

"Shell rot" like that is a very common occurrence in Radiated Tortoises kept in FL and south GA. Every Radiated Tortoise I placed on loan to St. Catherine's Island Survival Center came back with that condition, and I have gotten others via purchase and/or loans from FL owners with the same thing.
 

skottip

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
Messages
272
Location (City and/or State)
Florida
I am going to get it scoped. The main reason I posted here was to see if any other tortoise breeders ever had a male try and dig a nest. I know it sounds like a silly question. Visually to me it looks like a male. I have never had a male tortoise dig a nest. Bill, even if it was a male with undersized gonads, what would be the reason it nested? Lol
 

skottip

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
Messages
272
Location (City and/or State)
Florida
And most of my tortoises have "scud" "shell rot". Whatever you want to call it. I just learned to live with it.
 

zovick

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
3,386
I am going to get it scoped. The main reason I posted here was to see if any other tortoise breeders ever had a male try and dig a nest. I know it sounds like a silly question. Visually to me it looks like a male. I have never had a male tortoise dig a nest. Bill, even if it was a male with undersized gonads, what would be the reason it nested? Lol

Hi Scott,
Male and female Radiateds have both testosterone and estrogen in their bloodstreams. Obviously, in males there is a much greater concentration of testosterone than estrogen, and the opposite is true of females. If something (such as a tumor) is causing an excess production of estrogen and/or restricting the production of testosterone in a male, female characteristics could manifest themselves. Perhaps your tortoise has testes which have never developed fully for whatever reason, hence the estrogen produced by other glands is taking over and causing the nesting response. Another possibility if the testes are normal could be a tumor of a part of the pituitary gland causing way too much estrogen production and thus over-riding the normal testosterone production.

Or maybe it was just the full moon!

Seriously, I have had plenty of tortoises in my 58 plus years of keeping tortoises (and 62 years with aquatic turtles), and I have never had a male tortoise or turtle dig a nest. It will be interesting to see what the endoscopy shows. If that shows totally normal gonads, ask if a blood test can be done to check the blood levels of testosterone and estrogen to see if they are normal or not. Keep me informed as to what is discovered, if anything. Thanks!
 

skottip

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
Messages
272
Location (City and/or State)
Florida
Bill, I was thinking about taking a road trip up north. Ill buy dinner. lol
 

jmaneyapanda

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2012
Messages
68
I have seen some in-betweens with other species.

I once received a sulcata with the classic "U" shaped anal scutes, tiny gulars, a small head, no concavity… and a 3" long tail tucked to the side. Everyone who saw it swore it was female right up until I showed them the tail.

Years ago I raised a group of three young sulcatas together. For almost nine years, I was convinced I had two females and a male. The dominant male humped the other two regularly. Each "female" had small gulars, a small tail, the "U" shape, no plastron concavity, and each female behaved very female too. At around 9 years old, I discovered that the larger of my two females was actually a male when the two boys were locked in battle trying to kill each other. I could see the dust and here the banging and shoving from all the way across the 5 acre ranch.

It appears that the presence of a dominant male can suppress the secondary sexual characteristics of other males. I've seen this other times since then.

I have never seen this with females looking male though, and I have never seen any male turn around and dig with its back feet, as if nesting.

Please post the x-rays pics and keep us updated on this unusual case.
I agree completely. We (as keepers) tend to discredit the fact that no matter how closely we replicate natural environments and social heirarchies within these animals, they are always still replications. In in animals social structures, theres a lot of innate behaviors that can be masked until the right social time.
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,405
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
Is there another, more dominant male in the colony? I've seen male russians with smaller tails and acting female when kept in the same space as a more dominant male Russian. I know. . . I know - different species.

I've also seen a female horse act like a male in a herd being pasture bred with one herd stallion. The stallion always tried to fight with this one female, and when he wasn't around, she would always mount the other females.

It happens in humans, why not in other species?
 
Top