Intranuclear Coccidiosis (Tortoise Bubonic Plague)

cdmay

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deadheadvet said:
The best way for me to put this is:
Those with large, valuable collections will test and quarantine new additions because it will limit spread and exposure of dangerous pathogens. Those with small collections or individual animals, or
Tortoises on the inexpensive side, will see this only as a dollars and cents thing and can't justify the cost of the test. That is a hurdle that serious tortoise keepers will never be able to overcome. That is why this disease will be difficult to overcome. The failure of collectors to test will continue to cause the spread of this organism. I have passed on numerous purchases because the seller refused to test their animals.

All true statements. But I would also add this...there are those who have collections that have had no new introductions for over a year, or even two years and have never had any illness issues or symptoms during that time. I would include myself in this group. Should these people also test their animals or is it safe to assume (I know, this is stupid to do) they are 'clean'.
Testing would be great if it was simple and inexpensive. BUT, my local veterinarian only does the cloacal swab for $50.00. I then have to take the swab to FedEx myself (which is another $40.00) and have it sent to the University of Florida which I am told charges another $100.00 per test. If I have 10 animals in my collection you're starting to talk about some serious money to test for something I have never seen a symptom of.
So I can understand why many keepers aren't all jumping on the bandwagon to test their collections. It may not be the best situation, but I understand it.
 

deadheadvet

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Lot of misinformation on testing. Closed collection obviously at lower risk. You could random test some animals or test animals as a group with multiple swabs to reduce cost. That's what I have done. The qPCR is the way to go. 90 first sample, 30 each additional.
 

AnnV

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Re: RE: Intranuclear Coccidiosis (Tortoise Bubonic Plague)

deadheadvet said:
Lot of misinformation on testing. Closed collection obviously at lower risk. You could random test some animals or test animals as a group with multiple swabs to reduce cost. That's what I have done. The qPCR is the way to go. 90 first sample, 30 each additional.

Have you heard of false negatives from the PCR testing? I mean it could be missed with this method, right?
Do you foresee the accessibility and affordability improving in the near future?
 

deadheadvet

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False negatives are possible. If the DNA copies are not present at the time of sampling, you will get a false negative. That's why you need a good cloacal swab to be sure the result will be valid.
 

cdmay

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deadheadvet said:
Lot of misinformation on testing.

That is obviously true. However the costs and hassle I mentioned were exactly what a buddy of mine here locally went through to have one of his animals tested. We use the same vet as good reptile vets aren't exactly that common. I'm sure you could get some kind of break with multiple swabs though.
 

deadheadvet

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I'm going to say this one more time.
I don't get any discounts just like the rest of you! The lab charges 90$ for the first sample if submitting for qPCR which is looking for only the specific sequence of coccidia that is the cause of this disease. Any additional sample is 30$. If you want to bundle multiple samples into one test, that is a way to save money. If it is negative, those animals are negative. If the test comes back positive, you will not know which animal is positive. I am not going to explain this anymore. The majority of the people on this forum seem to think that vets are getting some deal on the testing. Not happening. Go to the Univ. of Fla. Coll. Vet med web site and you will see the info there yourself.
 

cdmay

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deadheadvet said:
I'm going to say this one more time.
I don't get any discounts just like the rest of you! The lab charges 90$ for the first sample if submitting for qPCR which is looking for only the specific sequence of coccidia that is the cause of this disease. Any additional sample is 30$. If you want to bundle multiple samples into one test, that is a way to save money. If it is negative, those animals are negative. If the test comes back positive, you will not know which animal is positive. I am not going to explain this anymore. The majority of the people on this forum seem to think that vets are getting some deal on the testing. Not happening. Go to the Univ. of Fla. Coll. Vet med web site and you will see the info there yourself.

Whoa! easy there Head!
I meant you might get a discount for multiple swabs, from the vet who takes the the swabs...not from the University of Florida. I think we get the point about what UF charges.
We might not all be veterinarians but that doesn't mean we're idiots you know.
 

deadheadvet

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So now you know the cost. If your vet is going to charge too much for obtaining the samples, then find someone else who won't. As far as being treated as idiots. Sorry about that, but I've had this discussion over a dozen times and it's the same thing, how do I get a discount on samples. U of F is discounting all the sample after the first one. 90 down to 30. If you want complete DNA sequencing, gonna get expensive. 100$ per test no discounts on any volume. Very labor intensive test. 2 weeks minimum on results.
 

AnnV

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Re: RE: Intranuclear Coccidiosis (Tortoise Bubonic Plague)

deadheadvet said:
So now you know the cost. If your vet is going to charge too much for obtaining the samples, then find someone else who won't. As far as being treated as idiots. Sorry about that, but I've had this discussion over a dozen times and it's the same thing, how do I get a discount on samples. U of F is discounting all the sample after the first one. 90 down to 30. If you want complete DNA sequencing, gonna get expensive. 100$ per test no discounts on any volume. Very labor intensive test. 2 weeks minimum on results.

Thank you very much for your thorough explanation. It IS very much appreciated.
You may not, but some vets really rake their clients over the coals when it comes to sending tests off. We are now aware, thanks to you, of the exact charge by UF. But there are vets who determine their own costs regardless of what they are charged. Also, they may or may not pass on any savings for multiple test discounts.
I am on a tick bite disease discussion group and we talk price all the time for various blood tests - the range is mind boggling, for the same tests through the same exact labs. It is highway robbery what some vets charge. Most labs will only deal with vets, so it is not an option to send yourself.
 

deadheadvet

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I will put this out there. For anyone who wants to test their tortoises,
I will send the swabs and tubes to you with the form. You will tell me how many animals you want tested. You provide me with the species of tortoise and I.D. number of animal being tested. I will only charge the cost of the test, cost of the materials, shipping charge via US Postal, 2.5% credit card fee that Mastercard/Visa charges. There will be no profit in it for me. You will be responsible to send the samples to the Univ. of Fla. Lab. Samples must be sent Priority overnight. Results will be sent to me and I will forward them onto you once they are finalized. The deal is I will need to be paid in advance through my vet hospital so no shenanigans. As previously stated. The lab charges 90 for the first test, 30 for all additional samples. Let me know if anyone wants to test their collection.
 

cdmay

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deadheadvet said:
So now you know the cost. If your vet is going to charge too much for obtaining the samples, then find someone else who won't. As far as being treated as idiots. Sorry about that, but I've had this discussion over a dozen times and it's the same thing, how do I get a discount on samples. U of F is discounting all the sample after the first one. 90 down to 30. If you want complete DNA sequencing, gonna get expensive. 100$ per test no discounts on any volume. Very labor intensive test. 2 weeks minimum on results.

No worries. Much gets lost in translation on forums.
As AnnV stated... your information is highly appreciated.

For many of us spread across the country, finding a local competent veterinarian who treat reptiles is not so easy. Down here in south Florida there are a million dog/cat vets, many horse vets and then some who specialize in exotic birds. Very few treat reptiles, and even then they are sort of ambivalent about it. When I approached the two vets I know about IC you could almost see their eyes roll back in their heads.
Too bad Greg Flemming is gone--he was one reptile vet in Florida who would be all over something like this.
 

deadheadvet

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Just keep in mind. Depending on where you are in Fla. The U of F has top notch people there especially Dr. Heard. I've spent a lot of time there throughout my career and they are the best. That is why they offer all the cutting edge testing on all of these reptile diseases.
The other option I have done multiple times myself is shipping tortoises via FEDEX when I can't get my own animals to come around and need more diagnostics than I have available.
I have shipped them there and to an excellent reptile Vet in El Paso as well. All of my animals have traveled well. Some survived treatment, some not depending on the illness. That's tortoise collecting. They all don't make it. However I'll do whatever needs to be done. We have a responsibility once we take on the care of these animals. No one ever said it would be cheap. Boy don't I know it!
 

sibi

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I, for one, appreciate that we're having this discussion because so many members claim they can't afford to buy a water dish or take their tort to a vet. Whether we own reptiles as breeders, hobbyist, or as a pets, we all know that many can't afford to own tortoises and maintain their care. As such, perhaps if they read this thread, they will do right by their animals and either refrain from buying tortoises especially cheaper sulcatas, or if they own tortoises, give them to those who they know can care for them financially and responsibly. This includes testing them for diseases such as this.
 

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Deadheadvet and I seem to be on the same wavelength.

I spoke with my boss/practice owner yesterday...and we'd like to offer the same assistance. Since Deadheadvet is on the east coast, and I'm on the west, maybe we can team up and help...sort of regionally take care of keepers. I'm in Oregon, so anyone out west I can ship free swabs and forms to (I have an account at UF), and Michelle will be the overseeing DVM. My techs can do a thorough cloacal swab, so it's not rocket surgery. [SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] and I am more than happy to call your local DVM and techs and talk them into doing this for free as a service to further research, and maybe coming from a peer vs a client will help...even though they should ALL offer this free to clients. (Shakes head).

Anyone in my area, I will do this for you.

Deadheadvet, would you be interested in writing up a brief procedure for a thorough c-swab? I can help disseminate those to keepers and hospitals out here.
 

deadheadvet

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I'll post a youtube video in the next few weeks showing how to do it. Really easy, just requires a little patience with the tortoise. Once you see it, the keepers can do it themselves without bringing the tortoises in. Females are a little easier than males. The males you sometimes have to run their tails under warm water to get them to show their cloaca, then quickly insert the swab and swirl around.
 

Sulcata_Sandy

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deadheadvet said:
I'll post a youtube video in the next few weeks showing how to do it. Really easy, just requires a little patience with the tortoise. Once you see it, the keepers can do it themselves without bringing the tortoises in. Females are a little easier than males. The males you sometimes have to run their tails under warm water to get them to show their cloaca, then quickly insert the swab and swirl around.

Even better! I agree, super easy, no reason keepers can't do this at home. I've already ordered mini swabs from Idexx, so I can mail them out next week to anyone out in the wild Wild West that want 'em.

Are you on VIN or VSPN?
 

sibi

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A YouTube video would be great! I then can drive to UF and prearrange a drop off. If deadheadvet would receive the results, that would be the way to go for me. What kind of special packaging would I need to put the samples in for drop off ay UF?
 

deadheadvet

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If you are going to bring the samples in person, need to keep them in a cooler until delivered.
They usually want the samples between Mon-Wed.
 
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