Input? Soaking and Nutrition

[W Shaw]

From what I've seem on the forum, a lot of tortoises seem to have issues with not eliminating regularly. Mine's never had that issue. He defecates every time he eats. It's normally a semi-solid mass -- not too hard or loose, and the food appears well-digested. But when he soaks ((which is currently more or less nightly with occasional missed nights), he defecates within two or three minutes of hitting the water, and continues to do so until he's out of the bath. By the time I rinse and refill his tub, he's already gone again in the other tub. The first time will be mostly digested, but by 15 minutes into a soak he's eliminating essentially undigested food. Since he's soaking almost every night, I'm wondering if this could have an impact on nutrition. Calories are a particular concern for me because he came to me so emaciated. Obviously, he needs the soaking in any case. He's essentially free choice feeding right now. He gets a big balanced meal in the morning. Whatever isn't eaten by the time I get home in the evening I take away and we have about 20 minutes of hand feeding on whatever he wants before his bath and then I leave him with a small bedtime plate that he nibbles on before he goes to bed. He usually doesn't eat much of that plate, but it settles him down after his bath and it's there if he wakes up hungry during the night or gets up early. So, I'm thinking what he loses to the bath is probably not enough to be a problem, but worth asking the experts here about, in any case.

 

[yillt]

From what I've seem on the forum, a lot of tortoises seem to have issues with not eliminating regularly. Mine's never had that issue. He defecates every time he eats. It's normally a semi-solid mass -- not too hard or loose, and the food appears well-digested. But when he soaks ((which is currently more or less nightly with occasional missed nights), he defecates within two or three minutes of hitting the water, and continues to do so until he's out of the bath. By the time I rinse and refill his tub, he's already gone again in the other tub. The first time will be mostly digested, but by 15 minutes into a soak he's eliminating essentially undigested food. Since he's soaking almost every night, I'm wondering if this could have an impact on nutrition. Calories are a particular concern for me because he came to me so emaciated. Obviously, he needs the soaking in any case. He's essentially free choice feeding right now. He gets a big balanced meal in the morning. Whatever isn't eaten by the time I get home in the evening I take away and we have about 20 minutes of hand feeding on whatever he wants before his bath and then I leave him with a small bedtime plate that he nibbles on before he goes to bed. He usually doesn't eat much of that plate, but it settles him down after his bath and it's there if he wakes up hungry during the night or gets up early. So, I'm thinking what he loses to the bath is probably not enough to be a problem, but worth asking the experts here about, in any case.

I've never experienced that with my tort and I think it sounds pretty bad. Could you please show us a photo as I'm not quite sure how undigested, 'undigested' is. If you can still see his food in separate prices there is definitely something wrong. Wait until some more people come along but until then, please could you get a photo? Thanks

 

[Yvonne G]

There are those who say too much pooping in the soak is bad for the nutrition of the tortoise, and then there are those that poo poo that idea.

If I don't see the tortoise self soak or drinking, I only soak once a day, in the morning, then they can eat all day long and replenish what they've pooped out.

If you're seeing undigested food in the excess poops, I would venture to say your tortoise is getting soaked too much. Does he free soak? or drink on his own?

I have 6 little hatchling desert tortoises and I see them in their waterer all the time, so I only soak them a couple times a week.

 

[W Shaw]

I've never experienced that with my tort and I think it sounds pretty bad. Could you please show us a photo as I'm not quite sure how undigested, 'undigested' is. If you can still see his food in separate prices there is definitely something wrong. Wait until some more people come along but until then, please could you get a photo? Thanks

I'll see about photos next time I soak him.

 

[W Shaw]

There are those who say too much pooping in the soak is bad for the nutrition of the tortoise, and then there are those that poo poo that idea.

If I don't see the tortoise self soak or drinking, I only soak once a day, in the morning, then they can eat all day long and replenish what they've pooped out.

If you're seeing undigested food in the excess poops, I would venture to say your tortoise is getting soaked too much. Does he free soak? or drink on his own?

I have 6 little hatchling desert tortoises and I see them in their waterer all the time, so I only soak them a couple times a week.

He doesn't drink much on his own. Since I got him a new water dish a month or so ago, I've only seen him use it once ( took a sip and then sat in it) but I will occasionally find poop in it, so I know he goes in it occasionally. I work full time, so I'm not home for most of his active day. He may be using it more than I'm aware of.

The reason I soak him so often is that I've had to turn the apartment heat on to keep his temperatures stable, and that's caused some humidity issues. I have a new humidifier and hygrometer coming in tomorrow. In the meantime I'm misting both him and the substrate, and also, depending on what's in his breakfast, I mist that so he gets a little extra water. Thinking about moving him to a moister substrate like coir but his vet doesn't want him in coir and I've heard peat isn't a good option. He'll be at the vet today, so I'll have another conversation with him (the vet, not the tortoise!) about the substrate. He was in really bad condition when I got him, so the vet visit is just a follow-up on his initial assessment to make sure he's making good progress in my care. Anyway, if I skip the soak for two days in a row, his skin gets really dry. He doesn't get much benefit from a humid hide, because he won't use hides. Prefers to find an open area and burrow in it.

 

[Prairie Mom]

Hi W Shaw
I've only had one semi recent sulcata tortoise rescue. I also soak my tortoise daily, because my tortoise
L-O-V-E-S it and I don't mind the security of keeping her hydrated.

My tortoise also defecates and urinates in the water often. When she was little she seemed to only do it in the water and I had to make multiple water changes as you mentioned, now that she's older she does it in or out of it. (I can't comment about the undigested food and would suggest you rely on Yvonne's and other more experienced advice.) I did have similar concerns about nutrition as well and searched the forum reading both opposing ideas.

I've now joined team: "Does not impact nutrition" The reason I now have my own opinion on this is because at times I can see and recognize discernable plant matter in her stools. Particularly now that it's winter and I am feeding my tortoise largely from a diet of preserved foods, I know exactly what she is eating and when she ate it. Some flower stems are trickier to digest and can often come out pretty whole if I don't cut them up a bit for her and I can sometimes see for myself that she is not releasing the food she ate in the same day, but often food that was eaten quite a while ago.

For my beastie, it seems to really depend on how fibrous the diet. Soft leafy greens and soaked mazuri go through her REALLY fast, others take a while to digest. If you're concerned about nutrition my amateur thought would be to seek out foods that you know will take longer to digest so that she will absorb the nutrients.

Overall sounds like you're doing really great to me!

 

[Tom]

I soak babies of all species every day for at least the first 6 months. I may start skipping a day now an then after that, but its still 5-6 days a week until they gain some size.

All of mine poop copious quantities in their soaks, yet they thrive and put on size and weight, well above any "average".

My contention is, and always has been, that if soaking too much causes them to run the food through their intestinal tract too quickly and not get enough nutrition, then why are my daily soaked babies so much healthier, thriving and growing compared to tortoises of the same age and species that are soaked less often? If they weren't getting enough nutrition, wouldn't they grow slower than a tortoise who was getting more nutrition? Mine babies grown in my African rainy season simulation chambers that are soaked daily grow 2 to three time faster than tortoises raised in the typical dry fashion when fed the same quantities of the same foods. In fact in my experiments the dry raised ones ate the same foods and then grazed all day on top of the food I fed them, while the indoor ones only had what I fed them.

 

[W Shaw]

Hi W Shaw
I've only had one semi recent sulcata tortoise rescue. I also soak my tortoise daily, because my tortoise
L-O-V-E-S it and I don't mind the security of keeping her hydrated.

My tortoise also defecates and urinates in the water often. When she was little she seemed to only do it in the water and I had to make multiple water changes as you mentioned, now that she's older she does it in or out of it. (I can't comment about the undigested food and would suggest you rely on Yvonne's and other more experienced advice.) I did have similar concerns about nutrition as well and searched the forum reading both opposing ideas.

I've now joined team: "Does not impact nutrition" The reason I now have my own opinion on this is because at times I can see and recognize discernable plant matter in her stools. Particularly now that it's winter and I am feeding my tortoise largely from a diet of preserved foods, I know exactly what she is eating and when she ate it. Some flower stems are trickier to digest and can often come out pretty whole if I don't cut them up a bit for her and I can sometimes see for myself that she is not releasing the food she ate in the same day, but often food that was eaten quite a while ago.

For my beastie, it seems to really depend on how fibrous the diet. Soft leafy greens and soaked mazuri go through her REALLY fast, others take a while to digest. If you're concerned about nutrition my amateur thought would be to seek out foods that you know will take longer to digest so that she will absorb the nutrients.

Overall sounds like you're doing really great to me!

Thanks! That's what I'm seeing -- bits of recognizable plant material, and crumb sized bits of the butternut the vet has me feeding him to help weight gain. I wish I could get Mazuri into him reliably, but he hates it. So I can only get a bite or two in, and only if it's wrapped in radicchio.

 

[W Shaw]

I soak babies of all species every day for at least the first 6 months. I may start skipping a day now an then after that, but its still 5-6 days a week until they gain some size.

All of mine poop copious quantities in their soaks, yet they thrive and put on size and weight, well above any "average".

My contention is, and always has been, that if soaking too much causes them to run the food through their intestinal tract too quickly and not get enough nutrition, then why are my daily soaked babies so much healthier, thriving and growing compared to tortoises of the same age and species that are soaked less often? If they weren't getting enough nutrition, wouldn't they grow slower than a tortoise who was getting more nutrition? Mine babies grown in my African rainy season simulation chambers that are soaked daily grow 2 to three time faster than tortoises raised in the typical dry fashion when fed the same quantities of the same foods. In fact in my experiments the dry raised ones ate the same foods and then grazed all day on top of the food I fed them, while the indoor ones only had what I fed them.

Thanks Tom! Great info!

 

[Kori5]

What's wrong with coconut coir as a substrate? I use it and it keeps humidity pretty well.

 

[W Shaw]

What's wrong with coconut coir as a substrate? I use it and it keeps humidity pretty well.

A lot of tortoise folks use it and love it. Ronan's vet doesn't like the texture of it for tortoises. He says he's seen a lot of eye issues from it.

 

[FujiBaird]

has your vet screened for intestinal parasites?

 

[Tom]

What's wrong with coconut coir as a substrate? I use it and it keeps humidity pretty well.

I prefer coir for baby Testudo species and CDTs. I find it too messy for baby sulcatas, leopards or any other larger species. I use orchid bark for larger Testudo.

 

[W Shaw]

I prefer coir for baby Testudo species and CDTs. I find it too messy for baby sulcatas, leopards or any other larger species. I use orchid bark for larger Testudo.

Thanks Tom! I've been a little afraid of the bark because of Ronan's burrowing. Do your guys burrow in it? What scares me a bit is the potential respiratory issues from spending all night breathing in coniferous sap fumes.

 

[Tom]

Thanks Tom! I've been a little afraid of the bark because of Ronan's burrowing. Do your guys burrow in it? What scares me a bit is the potential respiratory issues from spending all night breathing in coniferous sap fumes.

I've been using orchid bark for many species since the 80's. I've used it for delicate little dart frogs and other amphibians, expensive and rare roaches, all manner of snakes and lizards, as well as every common species of tortoise there is.

I have no reservations when I say that I know i is safe.

 

[keepergale]

There are those who say too much pooping in the soak is bad for the nutrition of the tortoise, and then there are those that poo poo that idea.

Ha Ha

 

[W Shaw]

I've been using orchid bark for many species since the 80's. I've used it for delicate little dart frogs and other amphibians, expensive and rare roaches, all manner of snakes and lizards, as well as every common species of tortoise there is.

I have no reservations when I say that I know i is safe.

Cool! Thanks!!

 

[Kori5]

I prefer coir for baby Testudo species and CDTs. I find it too messy for baby sulcatas, leopards or any other larger species. I use orchid bark for larger Testudo.

Thanks. Would it be ok to use for an adult Hermann even if it's messy? He loves it. I've read it passes through if eaten accidently? Because he is an active male and loves to walk even in his food dish and then small pieces sometimes stick to leaves and cuttlebone.

 

[Pearly]

Thanks! That's what I'm seeing -- bits of recognizable plant material, and crumb sized bits of the butternut the vet has me feeding him to help weight gain. I wish I could get Mazuri into him reliably, but he hates it. So I can only get a bite or two in, and only if it's wrapped in radicchio.

Did you mean "butternut" squash?

 

[Tom]

Thanks. Would it be ok to use for an adult Hermann even if it's messy? He loves it. I've read it passes through if eaten accidently? Because he is an active male and loves to walk even in his food dish and then small pieces sometimes stick to leaves and cuttlebone.

Coir is my second choice. It should be fine for you tortoise. Many people use it for larger tortoises, its just not my first choice. Small amounts that are accidentally ingested should pass right through.