Illegal Galapagos Tortoise Trade?

[cmacusa3]

Thanks for replying, cmac3. I will always try to make sure that right is being done by these great animals, regardless of how reputable the breeder is as I feel it is my duty as a citizen of the planet we share with so many beautiful animals that are taken advantage of every day.

I couldn't agree more and I think it's great that you signed up here and did question things.

 

[Tom]

Hello, and you for replying to my post. I have not passed any judgement on the owners of this pet store, as I do not know them personally, and it is not my place. I think the fact that I did some research, and made an account on here seeking advice speaks to my motives: being that I am not the most knowledgeable about the ownership laws, or captive breeding of Galapagos tortoises, and I just wanted to make sure that if there was in fact some wrong being done by the animal, I could be an advocate for it. I am glad to hear that breakthroughs are being made in the breeding realm of this species, however I would also argue that there really isn't a point in breeding an animal in the desert whom doesn't even belong here in the first place. Please know that the only thing I care about is fighting for those that cannot fight for themselves, and I don't appreciate the judgment you have seemingly already passed on me. Thank you for your time.

You accused someone of doing something illegal, when in fact what they are doing is not illegal. What they are doing is admirable, respectable and they should be commended for it, not accused of wrongdoing.

Now you profess to not see the point of reproducing endangered species because your perception of what the animal needs as an environment does not match what you perceive the animal's environment to be. Let me ask, what is your experience level with understanding and meeting the needs of a galapagos tortoise? What do you base these assertions on?

Being an advocate for animals that cannot speak is great. Leading with your emotions, making false accusations, and making assertions when you don't have the experience to back them, are all not such great things. Definitely look out for animals and help to ensure that they are properly cared for, but be careful not to sully the reputation of someone who is doing good things for the animals of the world if they don't deserve it and you don't have the experience to make such a judgement call.

 

[Yvonne G]

Ok, let's all just calm down. I think the OP was mainly concerned about the conditions in the store that the tortoise was living in. Once we advised her of the legality of selling galaps she backed off that portion and was now concerned about how the animal has to live in the store. And I must say, I understand her concern. It's not a good enough explanation that the tortoise goes home at night to a nice enclosure, when we all know that "at night" all they do is sleep anyway. What good is that nice enclosure then? I think the animal would be better served spending only a couple, three days in the store and the rest of the week living at home in their nice enclosure.

 

[mark1]

Hello Mark, thank you for replying to this post. You are absolutely correct in your sentiment. I will always question things like this, because if I didn't do something, and an animal's life was less fulfilling because of it, I would be doing the wrong thing.

the guy does have an overwhelming amount of positive reviews as a vendor ...... as far as saving galapagos tortoises's from extinction in the wild through a pet store breeding program a half a world away from their natural range , that , imo , would be quite a stretch ..... I would guess at least 99.9999999999% of all private captive breeding "programs" , in anything other than the area where the animals naturally occur , in reality only provides that more of these animals are legally available for the pet trade ...... reintroducing captive raised animals into wild populations is more difficult than just reproducing them in captivity , genetics , disease , survival , and addressing whatever problems caused the situation in the first place ....... those are not things most private breeders with small programs a half a world away can satisfy ....... as far as a needing to display a Galapagos tortoise in a pet store , I personally don't get it either .......... I wonder how many folks that have actually thought out owning a Galapagos tortoise , and are actually looking for one , are walking into pet stores searching for them ? my thought is pet stores are setup to make impulse sales ...........

 

[Tom]

the guy does have an overwhelming amount of positive reviews as a vendor ...... as far as saving galapagos tortoises's from extinction in the wild through a pet store breeding program a half a world away from their natural range , that , imo , would be quite a stretch ..... I would guess at least 99.9999999999% of all private captive breeding "programs" , in anything other than the area where the animals naturally occur , in reality only provides that more of these animals are legally available for the pet trade ...... reintroducing captive raised animals into wild populations is more difficult than just reproducing them in captivity , genetics , disease , survival , and addressing whatever problems caused the situation in the first place ....... those are not things most private breeders with small programs a half a world away can satisfy ....... as far as a needing to display a Galapagos tortoise in a pet store , I personally don't get it either .......... I wonder how many folks that have actually thought out owning a Galapagos tortoise , and are actually looking for one , are walking into pet stores searching for them ? my thought is pet stores are setup to make impulse sales ...........

You are certainly entitled to your negative thoughts and opinions, but I don't understand why anyone would want to belittle the efforts of people who have dedicated their time, money and effort to working toward saving an endangered species. All your points are valid about the issues in the wild, but is it better to do nothing? Do you not see the benefit of assurance colonies? Sure its hard to fix the problems in the wild, and sure its a long difficult process to reintroduce CB animals back into the wild, so we should just let them go extinct? There are plenty of examples of captive breeding saving wild populations and re-populating the wild. Peregrin falcons, anyone? American alligator in Louisiana? Sulcatas in Senegal?

I find it at the least distasteful that you wish to downplay the efforts of one man who is making a difference where all others failed. Look at Bill Z. Just one man, but look at what he has contributed to the radiata species alone, no to mention all of his other efforts. Look at all that Richard Fife has contributed to our hobby. These things start with just one person and when enough people follow that lead, a difference can be made. Why did these men do these things? Do you really think it was motivated by pure profit and greed so they could make implies sales? That is not only as wrong as it could be, it is also extremely insulting to a man's life's work and passion.

And what is wrong with supplying the pet trade with healthy CB animals? Shouldn't that be the goal? How much more of a connection do people feel to a wild animal when they can see it in person. Hold it or touch it. Have one of their own at home… Impulse buy? I seriously doubt that anyone is impulse buying a $5000 baby tortoise. Do you have some reason why you don't want people to have and keep one of these amazing animals? Are you one of those people that think that only elite zoos and accredited organizations should have access to them? Not me. A man like Bill, Richard, or two dozen of our own members here can do a far better job than any "facility" can. This has been proven time and time again.

 

[mark1]

You are certainly entitled to your negative thoughts and opinions, but I don't understand why anyone would want to belittle the efforts of people who have dedicated their time, money and effort to working toward saving an endangered species. All your points are valid about the issues in the wild, but is it better to do nothing? Do you not see the benefit of assurance colonies? Sure its hard to fix the problems in the wild, and sure its a long difficult process to reintroduce CB animals back into the wild, so we should just let them go extinct? There are plenty of examples of captive breeding saving wild populations and re-populating the wild. Peregrin falcons, anyone? American alligator in Louisiana? Sulcatas in Senegal?

I find it at the least distasteful that you wish to downplay the efforts of one man who is making a difference where all others failed. Look at Bill Z. Just one man, but look at what he has contributed to the radiata species alone, no to mention all of his other efforts. Look at all that Richard Fife has contributed to our hobby. These things start with just one person and when enough people follow that lead, a difference can be made. Why did these men do these things? Do you really think it was motivated by pure profit and greed so they could make implies sales? That is not only as wrong as it could be, it is also extremely insulting to a man's life's work and passion.

And what is wrong with supplying the pet trade with healthy CB animals? Shouldn't that be the goal? How much more of a connection do people feel to a wild animal when they can see it in person. Hold it or touch it. Have one of their own at home… Impulse buy? I seriously doubt that anyone is impulse buying a $5000 baby tortoise. Do you have some reason why you don't want people to have and keep one of these amazing animals? Are you one of those people that think that only elite zoos and accredited organizations should have access to them? Not me. A man like Bill, Richard, or two dozen of our own members here can do a far better job than any "facility" can. This has been proven time and time again.

Tom , I honestly agree with about everything you wrote , except my negativity and the distasteful part , it's actually reality , it's sad but a realist is often mistaken for a pessimist , and not often an optimist ............... American alligators were not saved by folks living in asia , sulcatas were not saved by American breeders , peregrine falcons were saved by the united states banning ddt and bringing in wild birds from asia and Europe ......... all the folks you mentioned are passionate folks who have contributed greatly to the proper care of captive animals ... I very much appreciate the folks who make it possible to legally privately own these animals , but I do recognize it for what it is .......... owning these animals , and being aware of the proper care , is educational , and does raise public awareness and care ....... realistically to display a Galapagos tortoise in an aquarium in a pet store is not exactly conveying a positive message .... and dropping $5000 on an impulse buy is very much a reality , I know a guy just dropped 2x that on a couple basketball tickets ........

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

You are certainly entitled to your negative thoughts and opinions, but I don't understand why anyone would want to belittle the efforts of people who have dedicated their time, money and effort to working toward saving an endangered species. All your points are valid about the issues in the wild, but is it better to do nothing? Do you not see the benefit of assurance colonies? Sure its hard to fix the problems in the wild, and sure its a long difficult process to reintroduce CB animals back into the wild, so we should just let them go extinct? There are plenty of examples of captive breeding saving wild populations and re-populating the wild. Peregrin falcons, anyone? American alligator in Louisiana? Sulcatas in Senegal?

I find it at the least distasteful that you wish to downplay the efforts of one man who is making a difference where all others failed. Look at Bill Z. Just one man, but look at what he has contributed to the radiata species alone, no to mention all of his other efforts. Look at all that Richard Fife has contributed to our hobby. These things start with just one person and when enough people follow that lead, a difference can be made. Why did these men do these things? Do you really think it was motivated by pure profit and greed so they could make implies sales? That is not only as wrong as it could be, it is also extremely insulting to a man's life's work and passion.

And what is wrong with supplying the pet trade with healthy CB animals? Shouldn't that be the goal? How much more of a connection do people feel to a wild animal when they can see it in person. Hold it or touch it. Have one of their own at home… Impulse buy? I seriously doubt that anyone is impulse buying a $5000 baby tortoise. Do you have some reason why you don't want people to have and keep one of these amazing animals? Are you one of those people that think that only elite zoos and accredited organizations should have access to them? Not me. A man like Bill, Richard, or two dozen of our own members here can do a far better job than any "facility" can. This has been proven time and time again.

Tom
As always you have the words to say what a lot of us are thinking . We are happy to have you . Keep up the great words . Thank you!

 

[Markw84]

Tom , I honestly agree with about everything you wrote , except my negativity and the distasteful part , it's actually reality , it's sad but a realist is often mistaken for a pessimist , and not often an optimist .........., sulcatas were not saved by American breeders ........

I disagree.

The knowledge gained by private breeders, mostly in America, is a key reason the programs are as successful as they are. Without proper husbandry methods, and the knowledge of breeding techniques, TSD pivot points, genotyping, etc, etc... assurance colonies in the country of origin are much less successful, and oftentimes impossible.

I am working with Burmese Stars. Where can I get the best and most helpful information on best methods to breed and raise viable animals? Here or in Myanmar? In fact, where is the best info coming from? Private breeders passionate about the study, or the best institutions? The private breeders lead the way. That is the information taken back to Myanmar that totally changes the game in producing viable assurance colonies. And the passion of those same breeders helps fuel resources such as this forum you are on, that also fuels the love of chelonians that generates many of the contributions to organizations and groups that are the very funding backbone of the efforts in those countries of origin.

 

[Tom]

Tom , I honestly agree with about everything you wrote , except my negativity and the distasteful part , it's actually reality , it's sad but a realist is often mistaken for a pessimist , and not often an optimist ............... American alligators were not saved by folks living in asia , sulcatas were not saved by American breeders , peregrine falcons were saved by the united states banning ddt and bringing in wild birds from asia and Europe ......... all the folks you mentioned are passionate folks who have contributed greatly to the proper care of captive animals ... I very much appreciate the folks who make it possible to legally privately own these animals , but I do recognize it for what it is .......... owning these animals , and being aware of the proper care , is educational , and does raise public awareness and care ....... realistically to display a Galapagos tortoise in an aquarium in a pet store is not exactly conveying a positive message .... and dropping $5000 on an impulse buy is very much a reality , I know a guy just dropped 2x that on a couple basketball tickets ........

Fair enough Mark. Thank you for taking the time to explain further. I think I understand where you are coming from better now. I've got no problem with pragmatism and reality.

One point of discussion though. The destruction of the peregrine species was halted by the DDT ban, but they were brought back from the brink of extinction by private breeders after all the government breeding programs failed. It could be argued that these private breeders were motivated by selfish reasons, even if they were also passionate about saving the species. Same for the alligators. I don't have an issue with either case. I see nothing wrong with incentivizing good deeds and rewarding hard work and years of effort. I am not sure what percentage of the breeding stock came from other countries though. That was not mentioned in what I have read on the subject.

There is this pervasive idea creeping (or maybe it is deliberately being inserted…) into our society that turning a profit or somehow earning money for one's daily efforts is somehow villainous. Especially so when it comes to any sort of "commerce" with living animals, which just happens to be my business. The OP struck this chord, and you did too in another way. I wish to fight this alarming trend and set things right. One might assume that people on a pet keeping forum would all be in agreement about this issue, but this is not necessarily the case.

 

[Tom]

I disagree.

The knowledge gained by private breeders, mostly in America, is a key reason the programs are as successful as they are. Without proper husbandry methods, and the knowledge of breeding techniques, TSD pivot points, genotyping, etc, etc... assurance colonies in the country of origin are much less successful, and oftentimes impossible.

I am working with Burmese Stars. Where can I get the best and most helpful information on best methods to breed and raise viable animals? Here or in Myanmar? In fact, where is the best info coming from? Private breeders passionate about the study, or the best institutions? The private breeders lead the way. That is the information taken back to Myanmar that totally changes the game in producing viable assurance colonies. And the passion of those same breeders helps fuel resources such as this forum you are on, that also fuels the love of chelonians that generates many of the contributions to organizations and groups that are the very funding backbone of the efforts in those countries of origin.

Very good points Mark. I agree.

 

[Markw84]

.

There is this pervasive idea creeping (or maybe it is deliberately being inserted…) into our society that turning a profit or somehow earning money for one's daily efforts is somehow villainous. .

Agree completely, Tom

A perfect example is again my little experience with Burmese Stars. I PURCHASED 8 of them from the Behler Center. As you can imagine, I spent a good deal of money. What was great, though, is that they also showed me that land in South Africa, that money was buying for LOCAL assurance colonies for tortoises is South Africa. Just as they have done in Madagascar.

 

[Yvonne G]

@Kaelin : Is it ok with you that this thread has taken this turn? If not, we're happy to move it elsewhere. It is an important subject and it's good to read these opinions on this subject.

 

[cmacusa3]

@Kaelin : Is it ok with you that this thread has taken this turn? If not, we're happy to move it elsewhere. It is an important subject and it's good to read these opinions on this subject.

I agree with you here, no matter what happens with the thread it has turned into a very educational thread and needs to be kept somewhere.

 

[Eric Phillips]

You are certainly entitled to your negative thoughts and opinions, but I don't understand why anyone would want to belittle the efforts of people who have dedicated their time, money and effort to working toward saving an endangered species. All your points are valid about the issues in the wild, but is it better to do nothing? Do you not see the benefit of assurance colonies? Sure its hard to fix the problems in the wild, and sure its a long difficult process to reintroduce CB animals back into the wild, so we should just let them go extinct? There are plenty of examples of captive breeding saving wild populations and re-populating the wild. Peregrin falcons, anyone? American alligator in Louisiana? Sulcatas in Senegal?

I find it at the least distasteful that you wish to downplay the efforts of one man who is making a difference where all others failed. Look at Bill Z. Just one man, but look at what he has contributed to the radiata species alone, no to mention all of his other efforts. Look at all that Richard Fife has contributed to our hobby. These things start with just one person and when enough people follow that lead, a difference can be made. Why did these men do these things? Do you really think it was motivated by pure profit and greed so they could make implies sales? That is not only as wrong as it could be, it is also extremely insulting to a man's life's work and passion.

And what is wrong with supplying the pet trade with healthy CB animals? Shouldn't that be the goal? How much more of a connection do people feel to a wild animal when they can see it in person. Hold it or touch it. Have one of their own at home… Impulse buy? I seriously doubt that anyone is impulse buying a $5000 baby tortoise. Do you have some reason why you don't want people to have and keep one of these amazing animals? Are you one of those people that think that only elite zoos and accredited organizations should have access to them? Not me. A man like Bill, Richard, or two dozen of our own members here can do a far better job than any "facility" can. This has been proven time and time again.

Yeah, this is the same man that goes hand picking wild caught adult Box Turtles and then turns around and sells them for $125-150 a pop. I had the privilege of speaking with Ken on this matter and the excuses come out the same....a profit. There is a fine line between working for a cause and working to get paid. On another side note the defensive manner of posts to which the OP received comments is embarrassing and should of been handled in a better fashion. Are we sure this isn't BrianW instead of Tom. Nothing wrong with stating points but grandstanding over those who don't know the business a well as you might is joke. Quite frankly this thread is educational but very mishandled!

 

[mark1]

well Mark i'm not sure we disagree as much as you think ................... as I do feel as I said " all the folks you(Tom) mentioned are passionate folks who have contributed greatly to the proper care of captive animals " ...... as far as learning the proper care of an animal that lives in sudan , komodo island , Madagascar , Guyana , or myanmar , you need to go to where they live and study them there ...your not gonna truly know their natural behavior studying them in an unnatural environment ... i'm not exactly sure what portion of those doing these studies would be American , i'm sure some are , Americans are basically a pretty environmentally conscious culture .... was Pritchard American ? does he raise and sell turtles ? I personally learned a ton about the care of turtles and tortoises from his writings , along with books written by folks who studied the environments he described them coming from , pictures , maps , climate data , books written by ichthyologist about the rivers and lakes he described these animals inhabiting ....... I've read many books written by folks who studied these animals where they live written by French , British , German , and Dutch authors ...... "standing on the shoulders of those who came before"

Tom , I am totally for the ability to privately keep wild animals , as long as they are properly cared for and legally obtained ...... i'm totally against the commercial collection of any wild animal , that i'm familiar with , for the pet trade . so it would not be possible for me to be against captive breeders , and the advancement of captive breeding programs of any kind ......what part these private captive breeding programs play in preventing extinction I think is debatable , but as you stated previously , some good has even come out of folks getting caught poaching critically endangered species ...........

 

[Markw84]

Peter Pritchard has lived in Florida since 1964. Got his Phd here. His personal collection includes the extremely endangered Yangtze giant softshell he is trying to breed to help save. Here in America. Coincidental to this thread he also has Galapagos tortoises trying to breed them. Again, here in America.

 

[cmacusa3]

Yeah, this is the same man that goes hand picking wild caught adult Box Turtles and then turns around and sells them for $125-150 a pop. I had the privilege of speaking with Ken on this matter and the excuses come out the same....a profit. There is a fine line between working for a cause and working to get paid. On another side note the defensive manner of posts to which the OP received comments is embarrassing and should of been handled in a better fashion. Are we sure this isn't BrianW instead of Tom. Nothing wrong with stating points but grandstanding over those who don't know the business a well as you might is joke. Quite frankly this thread is educational but very mishandled!.

Eric you know how I feel about box turtles and if he's taking from the wild and turning profit on it, then that I agree its horrible. I could do that all spring and summer long with all my road saves but I'm not in it for money

 

[Tom]

Quite frankly this thread is educational but very mishandled!

I've never claimed to be an expert at diplomacy, tact, or making others feel warm and fuzzy. Regardless of my ability to massage the feelings of others, something needed to be said. Standing by while this sort of sentiment spreads is a sure path to our own detriment in the long run. Public opinion matters whether it should or not. Feelings decide what legislation passes and what doesn't more often than not anymore, while facts and common sense are routinely ignored. Standing by and allowing ignorance and emotion to be the loudest voice heard has failed us miserably in recent years. Its time to stand up and shut the non-sense down.

If you are more skilled than I in this arena, I invite you to take the lead next time. I will follow your lead and learn from your display of diplomatic skill.

 

[wellington]

Hello, and you for replying to my post. I have not passed any judgement on the owners of this pet store, as I do not know them personally, and it is not my place. I think the fact that I did some research, and made an account on here seeking advice speaks to my motives: being that I am not the most knowledgeable about the ownership laws, or captive breeding of Galapagos tortoises, and I just wanted to make sure that if there was in fact some wrong being done by the animal, I could be an advocate for it. I am glad to hear that breakthroughs are being made in the breeding realm of this species, however I would also argue that there really isn't a point in breeding an animal in the desert whom doesn't even belong here in the first place. Please know that the only thing I care about is fighting for those that cannot fight for themselves, and I don't appreciate the judgment you have seemingly already passed on me. Thank you for your time.

Don't take things wrong. I'm not sure anyone has passed judgement on you. Just trying to get some facts and what your point of complaint was. Everyone, or at least most everyone on this forum has the animals best interest at the forefront. Please try to spy that out in the post. Just don't get turned off and leave the forum. Your the kind of person we all try to be, the voice for the animal.

 

[kingsley]

Here is a taught!!! Ken has Donated a Galop hatchling to TTPG to be auctioned off as a fund raiser for the past 4 years in a row, and is quite generous of him to do so.