Identification of Greek Tortoise

[Clovergreen]

Hello there. Im hoping you can help us identify what subspecies our tortoise Clover is. She has very clear spurs on her thighs so I assume she is a Greek. She is just under 10" lonG if that helps. Also any idea if she was once wild? Or how old she might be roughly? we got her from a elderly couple going into sheltered accommodation 15 years ago and know nothing about her past. Many thanks in advance!

 

[Yvonne G]

She looks like she's got some age on her. Let's ask @HermanniChris to I.D. her for us.

 

[Pawciorc]

Not an expert (yet ) but I would say Testudo Graeca Graeca. And at least 50 years old.

 

[HermanniChris]

North African T. graeca, Testudo graeca marokkensis. She's probably in her prime between 25 and 35 years old.

 

[Pawciorc]

Was so close

 

[Yvonne G]

Was so close

But no cigar!!

 

[HermanniChris]

Very close!

 

[Clovergreen]

Many thanks for the ID Chris. So she is a close cousin of the male graeca graeca you ID'd for me last week. Just as a matter of scientific interest as two different subspecies if they were to mate would their eggs be fertile? The male shows a keen interest in her but to our knowledge they have never mated and she has never laid any eggs. Our female Hermans lays eggs each year despite having no potential mate around. Joining this forum has made us realise how little we really know about them!

 

[Kleinmann_Fan]

Hermanni Chris, is 10 inches normal for a Morrocan?, I always thought they were a much smaller subspecies, And would have put money on this being an Algerian Whitei's Graeca.

John

 

[Clovergreen]

Oh @HermanniChris would be interested to know what you think of the above. She is about 3kg if that helps.

 

[HermanniChris]

The North African clade of Greek tortoises are quite similar in various ways. Validation and invalidation of subspecies comes and goes. T. graeca marokkensis and T. g. graeca can grow to very large dimensions comparable to (and sometimes even bigger then) T. g. ibera. In Algeria and Northern Morocco, these large tortoises are common place. Even the Souss valley tortoises (T. g. soussensis) can grow larger then the typical 18-25 cm max which is usually stated for them. The only real "smallish" Greek tortoises are Tunisians. But even with them, slightly larger examples exist. Ever hear of a 6" Egyptian tortoise? Well they exist too. Any of the T. graeca subspecies have extreme variation in size even within a given population. Locality has a significant effect on size in many cases. Usually tortoises encountered in the south of a particular area are smaller then those from the north. But again, there are exceptions and we must allow for variation especially without really understanding in full the genetic flow within a colony, or region.

 

[Clovergreen]

Thanks for the detailed reply Chris! Fascinating.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

HermanniChris, you are so very knowledgeable and informative. I just love-love-love reading what you say.
Even about tortoises I do not have. Thank you for educating everyone so thoroughly and thoughtfully! : )