I think I just made a $50 mistake

W Shaw

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Finally made the switch from aspen to orchid bark this weekend. At the last minute a couple of people said I wouldn't like it because it's not good for burrowing, but I'd been told by others that their torts burrow in it, and I'd already paid for the bark, so I put it in. The first thing I noticed was the strong fir sap odor that made me cough if I breathed it in, which raises some concerns about Ronan breathing it all the time. The second thing I noticed was Ronan trying for an hour to burrow in it and finally giving up and sitting unhappily on top of it with his nose in a corner. After the first few hours he finally went into a hide, which some people will think is a good thing, but he hates hides and won't go in them as long as he's able to burrow, so his going into the hide is essentially desperation on his part. I've also noticed that he keeps picking up his feet and shaking them, or pulling his feet into his shell, so he clearly hates the way the stuff feels on his feet. What I got was reptibark, which is supposed to be optimized for reptiles -- fine grade and well screened.

So I'm pretty much at a loss now as to where to go from here. The aspen was too dry, the vet says coir causes eye issues. I've had sphagnum in a small area for him with the aspen for the last couple of weeks but it wasn't great for sanitation, so I tossed it with the old substrate and don't want to put more in. I plan on leaving the bark in for a few more days to see if he gets over being creeped out by the feel of it, but he lives to burrow, so if he can't burrow in it, there's no way I'm making him live in it. At the moment, he's pacing around trying to burrow in different locations, walking into the hide and then coming back out, or sitting on his dinner plate to avoid sitting on the bark.

Anyone got an opinion on cypress?
 
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G-stars

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1. I use orchid bark for stars that are over a year old. However stars don't really like digging. They seem to be just find with it.

2. I always start off hatchlings on coir and have never had any problems. Eyes are always fine.

3. The main difference between cypress and aspen is that cypress can hold moisture much better.
 

W Shaw

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1. I use orchid bark for stars that are over a year old. However stars don't really like digging. They seem to be just find with it.

2. I always start off hatchlings on coir and have never had any problems. Eyes are always fine.

3. The main difference between cypress and aspen is that cypress can hold moisture much better.

Thanks! Maybe that'll be the answer. He loved the aspen. It was just too dry. No way to recoup the cost of the bark, but I can donate the spare bag to the university, I think. They have some snakes -- and a greenhouse that maybe has orchids in it.
 

G-stars

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Thanks! Maybe that'll be the answer. He loved the aspen. It was just too dry. No way to recoup the cost of the bark, but I can donate the spare bag to the university, I think. They have some snakes -- and a greenhouse that maybe has orchids in it.

Or you can use it outdoors for your plants and trees.
 

jeffjeff

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I always use coir and never had any real problems. The only time it got in her eyes was when she had flipped and was trying to right her self she got some in one eye i just rinsed it out with tepid water and she was fine.
 

Yvonne G

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Cypress mulch is good. I use it occasionally if I can't find orchid bark. For my box turtles I add some potting soil to the orchid bark. About 50/50. Buy the potting soil that doesn't have any perlite (little white balls) in it. This makes it easier for them to burrow.
 

lisa127

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Can you use the aspen and provide a humid hide for moisture?
 

W Shaw

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Can you use the aspen and provide a humid hide for moisture?
Tried that but he hates going in hides. As long as he can burrow he won't use one.

I have also not noticed an odour from fir bark before. What brand did you buy?

I bought reptibark, because I don't have access to bulk orchid bark.

Or you can use it outdoors for your plants and trees.
I don't have a house or yard, so I"m out of luck on that score.

Unfortunately it'll be a couple of days until I can get something else for him. I already blew a month's grocery budget on the bark. There's no cypress locally and Aspen is $22 bucks a bag in the only local place that sells it so that'll be next month's grocery budget blown on aspen to put in just for the week it'll take to get cypress in, and then the cost of the cypress. I don't mind spending money on him, but blowing 3 months' grocery budget one substrate change just because I got bad advice is a little frustrating.
 

dmmj

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I know it's terrible to blow money on an item that you can't use we all have experienced it.
 

W Shaw

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I know it's terrible to blow money on an item that you can't use we all have experienced it.

Definitely! I probably wouldn't be quite so frustrated if I didn't feel so guilty about having done this to him, and knowing I can't fix it until at least tomorrow. I've blown lots of money on getting his bulbs right and stuff.... but I hate seeing him so unhappy. I'll order cypress today. I hear it comes with springtails in it, but we'll have to put up with the little rascals, 'cause I don't think I could bring myself to roast them to death in the oven like most people do!
 

TurtleBug

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Finally made the switch from aspen to orchid bark this weekend. ... The first thing I noticed was the strong fir sap odor that made me cough if I breathed it in, which raises some concerns about Ronan breathing it all the time. ... Anyone got an opinion on cypress??

Yes, fir bark (repti bark, orchid bark) does have a strong, aromatic smell. If you are looking for an odor free substrate, cypress might not be it either because it smells, too. Maybe buy a very small bag first to see if the odor bothers you.
 

W Shaw

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Yes, fir bark (repti bark, orchid bark) does have a strong, aromatic smell. If you are looking for an odor free substrate, cypress might not be it either because it smells, too. Maybe buy a very small bag first to see if the odor bothers you.

Thanks! I can put up with a mild odor as it's safe for Ronan to breathe when it's concentrated in a burrow.
 

Pearly

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The smell should air out over time. Reptibark was my first substrate too. My babies were only 2 inches at the time. I felt their feet were too tiny for the the coarse surface like that. I kept the bark (it was only approx 1.5-2in thick layer of it) and topped it with coir/potting soil 3:1 mix. That was too messy, getting into food, water, all over babies.... so covered that with layer of sheet moss, live plants including ground covers, and I've been very happy with my substrate ever since. One of my RF's also likes to dig:)
 
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W Shaw

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The smell should air out over time. Reptibark was my first substrate too. My babies were only 2 inches at the time. I felt their feet were too tiny for the the coarse surface like that. I kept the bark (it was only approx 1.5-2in thick layer of it) and topped it with coir/potting soil 3:1 mix. That was too messy, getting into food, water, all over babies.... so covered that with layer of sheet moss, live plants including ground covers, and I've been very happy with my substrate ever since. One of my RF's also likes to dig:)
Sounds like a cool mix! I'm debating about mixing the existing bark with cypress to lighten it up, but hesitating for a practical non-tortoise reason: If I spend a bunch of money on cypress, mix it with the bark and he still can't burrow, then I'll be throwing out another batch of new substrate and the cost for my simple substrate change will be creeping toward $100. I started with Aspen. Ronan loved it and was thriving in it but it was a little too dry.
 

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I don't mind spending money on him, but blowing 3 months' grocery budget one substrate change just because I got bad advice is a little frustrating.

You didn't get bad advice. There is nothing wrong with your substrate and your tortoise is not "unhappy".

And cypress mulch will not hold a "burrow" any better than orchid bark.

Further, russians don't "burrow" They just dig down into the substrate and they are perfectly capable of doing this on orchid bark.

I think you should quit reading so much emotion into everything your tortoise does and give him a few days to adjust to the change. All tortoises are creatures of habit and it takes them time to get used to any new change, even if its a good change.

I'm finding it hard to understand why when thousands of russian tortoises have been living and thriving on orchid bark for decades that you consider the advice you were given "bad". I don't mind telling you that its a little bit insulting. Truth be told, I think there is wayyyyy too much anthropomorphizing going on there. Your tortoise "hates" this, that and the other thing? Really? I've never heard of a russian tortoise that hates hides. Most tortoises like to have a place to hide and get out of sight. It gives them a sense of security and reduces the stress levels compared to being out in the open. But somehow, your tortoise "hates" this? I'll bet if your tortoise lived with me he wouldn't "hate" hides or soaks or orchid bark.

Why do I bring all this up? Because you are jumping to all sorts of emotion based, unfounded conclusions about your tortoise's emotional state and what he "hates" of doesn't hate, and you are advising other new members who don't know any better based on the emotions you perceive from your single tortoise that you've had for a few months and your advice is in direct contrast to the advice of people who have decades of experience with hundreds of tortoises. If you don't like one substrate or another based on whatever criteria you choose, that is fine. Telling people that orchid bark is "bad advice", when it clearly is not, crosses a line that prevents me from remaining silent.
 

W Shaw

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You didn't get bad advice. There is nothing wrong with your substrate and your tortoise is not "unhappy".

And cypress mulch will not hold a "burrow" any better than orchid bark.

Further, russians don't "burrow" They just dig down into the substrate and they are perfectly capable of doing this on orchid bark.

I think you should quit reading so much emotion into everything your tortoise does and give him a few days to adjust to the change. All tortoises are creatures of habit and it takes them time to get used to any new change, even if its a good change.

I'm finding it hard to understand why when thousands of russian tortoises have been living and thriving on orchid bark for decades that you consider the advice you were given "bad". I don't mind telling you that its a little bit insulting. Truth be told, I think there is wayyyyy too much anthropomorphizing going on there. Your tortoise "hates" this, that and the other thing? Really? I've never heard of a russian tortoise that hates hides. Most tortoises like to have a place to hide and get out of sight. It gives them a sense of security and reduces the stress levels compared to being out in the open. But somehow, your tortoise "hates" this? I'll bet if your tortoise lived with me he wouldn't "hate" hides or soaks or orchid bark.

Why do I bring all this up? Because you are jumping to all sorts of emotion based, unfounded conclusions about your tortoise's emotional state and what he "hates" of doesn't hate, and you are advising other new members who don't know any better based on the emotions you perceive from your single tortoise that you've had for a few months and your advice is in direct contrast to the advice of people who have decades of experience with hundreds of tortoises. If you don't like one substrate or another based on whatever criteria you choose, that is fine. Telling people that orchid bark is "bad advice", when it clearly is not, crosses a line that prevents me from remaining silent.

I get that you're touchy about people questioning your advice, but as I said on the other thread, I'm not going to be baited into an argument. You've had your say, and I'm fine with that.
 

Tom

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I get that you're touchy about people questioning your advice, but as I said on the other thread, I'm not going to be baited into an argument. You've had your say, and I'm fine with that.

I also don't want to argue or fight, and no, I don't care if people question or ignore my advice. What I care about, no, what I'm "touchy" about, is people with hardly any experience with a given subject advising others in a way that is contrary to decades of evidence proving otherwise.

If Will, or Yvonne, or Keepergale, or Benjamin, or Neal, Dean, Ascott, Jacqui, Tortadise, Lancecham, or dozens of other experienced keepers came on to a thread explaining how they thought orchid bark was a "bad" substrate and they had concrete, first hand, experience based reasons and evidence to back up their assertions, I would not argue. But no one who has used this product for years under many reptiles does that because its not the case. I would simply say that I have had different experiences and make an attempt to explain the discrepancy.

I don't want to make an enemy here. I'm just explaining my point of view and explaining why I can't sit by quietly while misinformation is spread.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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I also don't want to argue or fight, and no, I don't care if people question or ignore my advice. What I care about, no, what I'm "touchy" about, is people with hardly any experience with a given subject advising others in a way that is contrary to decades of evidence proving otherwise.

If Will, or Yvonne, or Keepergale, or Benjamin, or Neal, Dean, Ascott, Jacqui, Tortadise, Lancecham, or dozens of other experienced keepers came on to a thread explaining how they thought orchid bark was a "bad" substrate and they had concrete, first hand, experience based reasons and evidence to back up their assertions, I would not argue. But no one who has used this product for years under many reptiles does that because its not the case. I would simply say that I have had different experiences and make an attempt to explain the discrepancy.

I don't want to make an enemy here. I'm just explaining my point of view and explaining why I can't sit by quietly while misinformation is spread.
Tom
You said what we all thought , and you said it with a lot of grace . Amen
 
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