Hybrid?

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Personally I prefer liger

Well, they do have magical powers.

Actually, the convention on hybrid nomenclature states that the first half of the portmanteau name comes from the father's species, while the second half from the mother's. So, if the dad is the lion and the mother the tiger, the offspring is a liger. If it's the other way around, the offspring is a tigon.

 

[N2TORTS]

Some inaccurate statements there (and btw, no need to shout)
Who's shouting ?

Inaccurate?....
"But different naturally occurring species have been reproductively isolated from each other for hundreds of thousands to millions of years. Leopard tortoises are not very closely related to sulcata tortoises...."
There not ? Do you have proof of that ? Although living on the same Continent for those millions of year? Iam not here to get into a " ***** match " on the net . I didnt hatch these but very proud to own them , and maybe shed some light in years to come . Like I mentioned " WE" created the names for the species in a few years , while evolution has been going on for millions with out a " specific name "

Best to try to follow Mother Nature's lead in most cases.= I agree
" Its Not Nice To Fool Mother Nature"

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Personally I prefer liger

^5 ... me too!

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Who's shouting ?

In netiquette, using all-caps or enlarged, bold-faced fonts often signifies shouting.

Inaccurate?....
"But different naturally occurring species have been reproductively isolated from each other for hundreds of thousands to millions of years. Leopard tortoises are not very closely related to sulcata tortoises...."
There not ? Do you have proof of that ? Although living on the same Continent for those millions of year? Iam not here to get into a " **** match " on the net . I didnt hatch these but very proud to own them , and maybe shed some light in years to come . Like I mentioned " WE" created the names for the species in a few years , while evolution has been going on for millions with out a " specific name "

Yes, I do have proof of that. Please refer to the two attached articles: Le et al. (2006), and Fritz and Bininda-Emonds (2007). Although both of these tortoises are large grassland species, they are actually fairly distantly related. So much so, that the genus Geochelone has been revised. It turns out that, based on both mitochondrial and nuclear gene phylogenies, the closest relatives of the African sulcata tortoise are the Indian and Burmese star tortoises. The leopard tortoise, meanwhile, turns out to be more closely related to the three southern African Psammobates species, but is distinct enough to have its own genus, Stigmochelys.

So, it turns out that sulcata and leopard tortoises are not very closely related at all, and yet people have taken to hybridizing them, presumably because they are both large, African grassland tortoises that do well in captivity. But this is not a good reason. If anything, the sulcata might hybridize more readily with star tortoises, since it is more closely related to them ... but of course, I am certainly not advocated that, either. Distinct tortoise species should be maintained and perpetuated as such, in order to avoid problems in the interspecific (and even intergeneric) hybrid generation.

 

[Kristina]

I am also against hybridization, but I have to admit, a high-domed, Sulcata sized tortoise with star markings would be incomparably freaking cool.

 

[N2TORTS]

Who's shouting ?

In netiquette, using all-caps or enlarged, bold-faced fonts often signifies shouting.

Inaccurate?....
"But different naturally occurring species have been reproductively isolated from each other for hundreds of thousands to millions of years. Leopard tortoises are not very closely related to sulcata tortoises...."
There not ? Do you have proof of that ? Although living on the same Continent for those millions of year? Iam not here to get into a " **** match " on the net . I didnt hatch these but very proud to own them , and maybe shed some light in years to come . Like I mentioned " WE" created the names for the species in a few years , while evolution has been going on for millions with out a " specific name "

Yes, I do have proof of that. Please refer to the two attached articles: Le et al. (2006), and Fritz and Bininda-Emonds (2007). Although both of these tortoises are large grassland species, they are actually fairly distantly related. So much so, that the genus Geochelone has been revised. It turns out that, based on both mitochondrial and nuclear gene phylogenies, the closest relatives of the African sulcata tortoise are the Indian and Burmese star tortoises. The leopard tortoise, meanwhile, turns out to be more closely related to the three southern African Psammobates species, but is distinct enough to have its own genus, Stigmochelys.

So, it turns out that sulcata and leopard tortoises are not very closely related at all, and yet people have taken to hybridizing them, presumably because they are both large, African grassland tortoises that do well in captivity. But this is not a good reason. If anything, the sulcata might hybridize more readily with star tortoises, since it is more closely related to them ... but of course, I am certainly not advocated that, either. Distinct tortoise species should be maintained and perpetuated as such, in order to avoid problems in the interspecific (and even intergeneric) hybrid generation.

Despite previous research, phylogenetic relationships
within the family Testudinidae have remained controversial
(Caccone et al., 1999a; Crumly, 1982, 1984a; Gerlach,
2001, 2004; Meylan and Sterrer, 2000; Parham et al.,
2006). One of the perceived problems, voiced by several
authors, concerns the high level of morphological
convergences suspected for some traditionally used characters (AuVenberg, 1974; Bramble, 1971; Pritchard,
1994). In addition, all testudinid molecular studies to
date have been limited in terms of taxonomic sampling
because they addressed speciWc questions of relationship
within smaller subsets of the family (with the possible
exception of Cunningham’s (2002) study, but this has not
yet become available). These studies included relationships
within the genus Gopherus (Lamb and Lydeard,
1994), origin and relationships of Malagasy tortoises
(Caccone et al., 1999a), origin of Galápagos tortoises
(Caccone et al., 1999b), origin of Indian Ocean tortoises
(Austin and Arnold, 2001; Austin et al., 2003; Palkovacs
et al., 2003), relationships within the genus Indotestudo
(Iverson et al., 2001), and relationships within the genus
Testudo (Fritz et al., 2005; Parham et al., 2006; van der
Kuyl et al., 2002).

Come on now ........

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I am also against hybridization, but I have to admit, a high-domed, Sulcata sized tortoise with star markings would be incomparably freaking cool.

Might be neat-looking, but we still shouldn't breed them. BTW - I'm also opposed to the hybrid "parrot cichlid" fish and other such artificial crosses.

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Despite previous research, phylogenetic relationships within the family Testudinidae have remained controversial (Caccone et al., 1999a; Crumly, 1982, 1984a; Gerlach, 2001, 2004; Meylan and Sterrer, 2000; Parham et al., 2006). One of the perceived problems, voiced by several authors, concerns the high level of morphological convergences suspected for some traditionally used characters (AuVenberg, 1974; Bramble, 1971; Pritchard, 1994). In addition, all testudinid molecular studies to date have been limited in terms of taxonomic sampling because they addressed speciWc questions of relationship within smaller subsets of the family (with the possible exception of Cunningham’s (2002) study, but this has not yet become available). These studies included relationships within the genus Gopherus (Lamb and Lydeard, 1994), origin and relationships of Malagasy tortoises (Caccone et al., 1999a), origin of Galápagos tortoises (Caccone et al., 1999b), origin of Indian Ocean tortoises (Austin and Arnold, 2001; Austin et al., 2003; Palkovacs et al., 2003), relationships within the genus Indotestudo (Iverson et al., 2001), and relationships within the genus Testudo (Fritz et al., 2005; Parham et al., 2006; van der Kuyl et al., 2002).

Come on now ........

Hey, you wanted proof.

Even if they were sister species, I still wouldn't want to hybridize them. Hermanns and Russians are closely related, and I don't think we should hybridize them, either.

 

[Kristina]

I am also against hybridization, but I have to admit, a high-domed, Sulcata sized tortoise with star markings would be incomparably freaking cool.

Might be neat-looking, but we still shouldn't breed them. BTW - I'm also opposed to the hybrid "parrot cichlid" fish and other such artificial crosses.

I am absolutely on the same page - although I did once own an adorable miniature mule

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Wonder what the human gene pool would be if "stuck" to our "own breed" ? ........

EX: French , English , German .....and Race ...... Not so pure eh ?

Not the same thing. We're all human species. Tortoises don't come in "breeds," and are different species.

Yvonne....actually ~ A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions.That definition of a species might seem cut and dried, but it is not—in nature, there are lots of places where it is difficult to apply this definition.Also, many plants, and some animals, form hybrids in nature. Hooded crows and carrion crows look different, and largely mate within their own groups—but in some areas, they hybridize. Should they be considered the same species or separate species?There are lots of other places where the boundary of a species is blurred. It’s not so surprising that these blurry places exist—after all, the idea of a species is something that we humans invented for our own convenience!

Heterosis ( hybrid vigor ) is a scientifically proven reality that minimizes the likely hood of genetic disease and boosts over all health, vigor, even size. A magnification of the gains had by incorporating divergent lines within breed. That said, it is no magic bullet. Crossing breed lines won’t make two dumb dogs smart, nor two cowardly dogs brave. Garbage in will get you garbage out; albeit healthier, possibly more sound…garbage.

As far as breeds are concerned ....
A breed can be defined as "a homogeneous grouping of animals within a species, developed by humans, a line of descendants perpetuating particular hereditary qualities."

JD~

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Many species of animals naturally crossbreed under certain conditions- similar enough species that they can confuse courtship signals, close proximity, usually a fringe area so fewer choices in their own species, often some other sorts of pressure to sort of force them together- like loss of habitat.

I am not aware of any examples of this in wild tortoises, although there is some evidence in the DNA that it happens with Red- and Yellow-foots. It could happen in other areas, I just don't know about it.

Captivity often simulates the above conditions, and some keepers try to cross-breed. The result is generally referred to as a cross and the species name is written with both names and an 'x', as in Chelonoidis carbonara x denticulata

My personal opinion about crossbreeding is that if we had a big gene pool to play with, a rock-solid knowledge of breeding and incubation needs, and had a breeding plan to improve the hobby (smaller, hardier, etc.),

Very well said Mark !

~

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...

 

[Weda737]

I know it's not really that relevant, and I'm not supporting either argument. Just an interesting note though, that corn snakes (red rat snakes) and black rat snakes hybridize naturally around here. I've even seen a few myself that I suspect are hybrids. Just thought it was neat.

 

[Doritoinmontucky]

WOW! I got alot more info about this than I thought i would. Thanks everyone, realy interesting stuff. I think i learned more in the last few minutes than i have in a while. And just an opinion the parrot cichled is derived from the Red Devil cichled and a Gold Ceverum, yet a parrot reflects niether. They are confused fish(dont know weather to kill or Flee i think.lol). Like was said two spices of tort would probably rear a really psycologicaly tormented animal.

-Derrik

 

[N2TORTS]

I know it's not really that relevant, and I'm not supporting either argument. Just an interesting note though, that corn snakes (red rat snakes) and black rat snakes hybridize naturally around here. I've even seen a few myself that I suspect are hybrids. Just thought it was neat.

Very relevant....and EXACTLY correct...... funny how people think this wouldnt included tortoises living in the same area ....

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I know it's not really that relevant, and I'm not supporting either argument. Just an interesting note though, that corn snakes (red rat snakes) and black rat snakes hybridize naturally around here. I've even seen a few myself that I suspect are hybrids. Just thought it was neat.

Very relevant....and EXACTLY correct...... funny how people think this wouldnt included tortoises living in the same area ....

Yes, it is very relevant. The corn snake (Pantherophis guttatus) comes in two subspecies: P. guttatus guttatus and P. guttatus emoryi. These are known to hybridize along a zone of intergradation (the way different subspecies of box turtle do).

This, however, is very different from the situation with the sulcata and leopard tortoises. Not only are these two species now thought to belong in different genera, but they also do not come into contact in nature. Both species are African, but sulcatas are from the Sahel just south of the Sahara, while leopard tortoises come from the savannas of eastern and southern Africa. In the wild, these two species would never meet.

 

[Madkins007]

I know it's not really that relevant, and I'm not supporting either argument. Just an interesting note though, that corn snakes (red rat snakes) and black rat snakes hybridize naturally around here. I've even seen a few myself that I suspect are hybrids. Just thought it was neat.

As I said, where you have two similar-enough species 'forced together' in some way, you are more likely to see natural crossbreeds. Here around Omaha, a lot of Eastern and Western species and subspecies overlap, and we see quite a bit of this as well. I'm not a frog person, but I understand that our cross-bred subspecies of Leopard frogs is semi-famous, sort of like the black phase fox squirrels we have.

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I know it's not really that relevant, and I'm not supporting either argument. Just an interesting note though, that corn snakes (red rat snakes) and black rat snakes hybridize naturally around here. I've even seen a few myself that I suspect are hybrids. Just thought it was neat.

Very relevant....and EXACTLY correct...... funny how people think this wouldnt included tortoises living in the same area ....

Yes, it is very relevant. The corn snake (Pantherophis guttatus) comes in two subspecies: P. guttatus guttatus and P. guttatus emoryi. These are known to hybridize along a zone of intergradation (the way different subspecies of box turtle do).

This, however, is very different from the situation with the sulcata and leopard tortoises. Not only are these two species now thought to belong in different genera, but they also do not come into contact in nature. Both species are African, but sulcatas are from the Sahel just south of the Sahara, while leopard tortoises come from the savannas of eastern and southern Africa. In the wild, these two species would never meet.

To use some different tortoises as an example...

Red- and Yellow-foot tortoises share some habitat, experience pressures that isolate and concentrate them, and the Red-foot has a rather weak courtship/mating signal. There is DNA evidence of interbreeding... although not much visible evidence- but that may be due to the resulting tortoise looking like a Red-foot. These two share a very common DNA and are thought to only have split apart a few million years ago.

On the other hand, Red-foots and Chacos overlap in the Gran Chaco region- often found very close to each other, experiencing pressures, etc.- but there is no evidence I am aware of that they crossbreed. Different DNA, different mating rituals, different appearances.

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[

Yvonne....actually ~ A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions.That definition of a species might seem cut and dried, but it is not—in nature, there are lots of places where it is difficult to apply this definition.Also, many plants, and some animals, form hybrids in nature. Hooded crows and carrion crows look different, and largely mate within their own groups—but in some areas, they hybridize. Should they be considered the same species or separate species?There are lots of other places where the boundary of a species is blurred. It’s not so surprising that these blurry places exist—after all, the idea of a species is something that we humans invented for our own convenience!

Species and taxonomy in general is our attempt to codify what we observe happening in nature. We made up the words, but the rules are based on what we see and can measure. We are not perfect at it, but we are working towards a better understanding.

The examples mentioned are perfect examples of how we can see that there is some rule being followed there. We just are not sure how it fits in with the other rules.

In some ways, the science of taxonomy is like a person watching an unfamiliar game or sporting event in another language. We can see the evidence of the rules going on, but trying to tease out all of the nuances and 'reverse engineer' the rules is tough.

 

[Doritoinmontucky]

Wow thanks everyone, this has been great. I almost wonder if it should have gone into debatible topics tho...

 

[dmmj]

So the 2 african species never come into contact, I wonder if in a natural setting would they mate? or did they only mate because they were in the same enclosure to produce the leocattas?

 

[Doritoinmontucky]

Hmm, if one or the other managed to cross the sahara, and it was breeding season they might.

 

[Raymo2477]

Well there not tortoises...but I know of natural hybrids in box turtles with ornate/desert, ornate/eastern, ornate/three toed etc. They only happen where species overlap also where I live there are natural hybrids of the eastern and midland painted turtles.

I know it's not scientific but I really see these more as morphs of the same species instead of distinct subspecies.

 

[Neltharion]

Species and taxonomy in general is our attempt to codify what we observe happening in nature. We made up the words, but the rules are based on what we see and can measure. We are not perfect at it, but we are working towards a better understanding.

The examples mentioned are perfect examples of how we can see that there is some rule being followed there. We just are not sure how it fits in with the other rules.

In some ways, the science of taxonomy is like a person watching an unfamiliar game or sporting event in another language. We can see the evidence of the rules going on, but trying to tease out all of the nuances and 'reverse engineer' the rules is tough.

I like this explanation.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Well there not tortoises...but I know of natural hybrids in box turtles with ornate/desert, ornate/eastern, ornate/three toed etc. They only happen where species overlap also where I live there are natural hybrids of the eastern and midland painted turtles.

I know it's not scientific but I really see these more as morphs of the same species instead of distinct subspecies.

Yes, these animals are closely related to each other. Much more so than sulcatas and leopard tortoises.

What about Testudo hybrids? I know Russians and Hermanns have been known to hybridize in captivity, and indeed they do form a clade within the genus Testudo. Have Greeks ever been known to hybridize with Egyptians or marginated tortoises? Or indeed, despite being a little more distantly related, has anyone ever heard of Greeks hybridizing with Hermanns or Russians?

 

[N2TORTS]

This may have some info ...
- Tortoise Protection Group
Hermanns tortoise/Herman's tortoise: ... Hybrid: The progeny from a breeding between two species which are not of the same genus i.e. offspring that is a cross ...
www.tortoise-protection-group.org.uk/site/98.asp


Thought this was interesting too............

GC News: February 3, 2010
Team of Veterinarians Prepare Hybrid Tortoises for Release on Pinta Island in 2010
In November 2009, a group of veterinarians, working with the Galapagos National Park (GNP), prepared 39 hybrid tortoises slated to be the pioneer group to initiate the return of tortoises to Pinta Island. Project Pinta is a multi-year project aimed at the restoration of the island following the successful eradication of goats on Pinta in 2003. While complete island restoration will require the eventual repopulation of Pinta with a reproductive tortoise population, scientists and managers are awaiting the final results from genetic analyses of a massive sampling of tortoises before making the final selection of which tortoises to use. To initiate the return of tortoises, critical ecosystem engineers during this important period of vegetative recovery, a special group of tortoises will be released onto Pinta. To ensure that this group of hybrid tortoises will not compromise any future efforts to reestablish a reproductive population, veterinarians sterilized them.