How old do you list baby tortoises?

[Kapidolo Farms]

I ship babies anytime after 10 days old. That 10 day period allows time for their yolk sacs to be completely dissolved and healed, for their shells to take "normal" shape and for me to observe each one eating and drinking. Beyond that time period there is no real changes except the beginning of their growth period to adulthood. Their survival process starts immediately out of the egg and remains basically the same throughout their young lives until they reach the young adult stage. As long as they were born healthy, are at 10 days they will be at 90 days, at 180 days and so on as long as they are provided the means to do so in captivity by their keeper. There is no point where they are more or less "fragile". It's all dependent upon the environment that they are in.

Yeah, 10 days, how fast do you suspect the yolk is used, not just absorbed, and before the tortoises is actually digesting food it ate? I had occasion to dissect several hundred Diamondback terrapins over about 16 years, and even though they are eating and defecating within a week, that yolk becomes an internal 'nutrient reservoir' that slowly releases food into the GI tract. Small testudo are clearly not terrapins, no need to point that out. The very few sulcata neonates that I have necropsied showed a similar pattern at several weeks of age. A still very distinguishable yolk, fully inside the abdomen, and associated via a small 'tube' near the stomach, to the GI. It was still provided nutrition.

Have you had occasion to see they are autonomous of the 'lunch mom packed' at ten days?

"I sell when I am sure they are eaten and poopen. They show some little growth that is beyond what an absorbed yolk will fuel. That is four to six week for leopards. I'm not sure the marginateds would be that different." from post 18 of this thread.

 

[allegraf]

I am flush with Marginated tortoises and am wondering when people tend to list them. They are all doing great, gaining weight and eating well. Last year I waited 3 months to sell 3 but this year I have a lot more and an incubator full of eggs.

I generally hold my cherry hatchlings for at least a month to make sure they are off to a strong start. Too many time well intentioned hobbyist want a hatchling and don't realize how sensitive hatchlings are to their environment. When a hatchling starts showing signs of failing health, it is usually a fast downward spiral for the hatchling. Sad for everyone when that happens. If I was selling to another knowledgable hobbyist I would sell earlier, but a month is the shortest time I keep my hatchlings before selling. So far so good.

 

[LRTortoises]

Thanks everyone. 6-8 weeks seems to be when I am selling at. By then I know they have eaten pooped and just about doubled in weight since hatching.

 

[Tom]

I find that the longer they live in grow in their first environment, the greater "margin of error" the new keeper will have.

GB is correct in that there is little difference between 10 days and 180 days, as long as the environment is correct, but a 100 gram baby can withstand more mistakes for longer than a 20 gram hatchling can. If there are no mistakes, then size and age won't matter.

I consider the above on a case by case basis depending on who I'm selling too, and I know other breeders consider this too. I would sell a hatchling to Will at any age he wanted. I would not sell a hatchling to a first time keeper until it had a little more size and age on it. Generally, I prefer to hold to my hatchlings for 60-90 days. I don't keep and breed tortoises as a business and I don't really care about the money, so I'm not in any hurry to "move" the inventory. I care about the health and well being of the animals first and foremost, and secondarily, I care about the new owner having a positive experience. I think holding on to a baby for a longer time period will generally increase the chances of that inexperienced keeper having success. They still need to do things "correctly", but a larger, older baby allows more leeway for those inevitable imperfections in the housing or care routine.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

GB is correct in that there is little difference between 10 days and 180 days, as long as the environment is correct, but a 100 gram baby can withstand more mistakes for longer than a 20 gram hatchling can. If there are no mistakes, then size and age won't matter..

The best possible environment won't make up for an animal who did not develop correctly. It's an individual by individual animal matter. One big hurdle to demonstrate that the tortoise is a "doer" to use a scientific mumbo jumbo term, is to make sure they can intake and defecate food autonomous from the yolk "lunch packed by Mom" to use another scientific mumbo jumbo term.

The time is not based on the competence of the future keeper or what environment is available.

Many have noticed the occasional one tortoise out of 10, all hatched and raised together, that is just not a doer at a few months of age. Vet's and animal farmers have speculated, in conversation with me, that some growth or other metabolic pathway is just 'not there'. This is true with chickens (near genetically identical in a house of 35K), to the single or few birth's/hatches in small groups.

A good standard, for lack of any other better way to put it, is to see that the animal, any animal, shows independence of direct parental influence. For tortoises, as they are, that is mostly achieved when the tortoise shows that it can eat and poop food independent of yolk.

It is a criteria independent of environment, transport shock, keeper competence etc.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I generally hold // hatchlings for at least a month to make sure they are off to a strong start.

~ We follow the same protocols, however a few experienced keepers want them sooner and many inexperienced keepers want them older and bigger!

 

[LRTortoises]

. I think holding on to a baby for a longer time period will generally increase the chances of that inexperienced keeper having success. They still need to do things "correctly", but a larger, older baby allows more leeway for those inevitable imperfections in the housing or care routine.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have considered hold on to my Marginateds for 1 year and to sell them as yearlings, but unfortunately the cost and time of upkeep starts to really get high for that many. However with keeping them in a humid environment on a good diet with humid hides I could also maybe assure smoother shells. HMM

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Maybe the 4 inch rule becomes more oppressive and start to include hobbyist, then this will be moot and the price sold-for will go up. I do see many people want the youngest possible neonate, I have a past friend who often had inquiries about selling eggs so they could hatch in the customers home. This had been an interesting thread @LRTortoises . It sounds like you have a healthy concern for both the animals and the tortoise owner.

 

[Tom]

I do see many people want the youngest possible neonate, I have a past friend who often had inquiries about selling eggs so they could hatch in the customers home.

I did exactly this with my tortoises in the 2015 Growth Thread. Got the eggs the day they were laid, incubated and hatched them myself.

Being an OCD perfectionist, I don't think anyone will start my babies as well as I will. My problem with buying babies is that no one does it as well as I do (in my mind…), so the longer they stay with the breeder, the more "damage" that is done. There are certainly exceptions to this and most of the people who I have bought babies from, are exceptions to this.