Hermann's juvenile sight issue

[Neil Thompson]

Hi all. I have a pair of Hermann’s tortoises that are now about a year and 3 months old. One of the two is slow to open his eyes and seems to have trouble seeing, which is most obvious when he tries to eat. He’ll reach out and ‘snap’ his mouth into the air while he’s right over or next to food (weeds, romaine, mazuri, etc.). Based on his wild inaccuracy, it seems clear to me that he can’t see the food in front of him.

He’s displayed this behavior in the past and I started giving him ZooMed turtle eye drops which seemed to largely correct the issue. Come to think of it, it may have started around winter time last year, so perhaps he’s undergoing some instinctive hibernation changes?

As background, when I received my tortoises, the troubled one had a shell that was slightly misshapen (the peak of his shell’s dome was offset). His shell has formed to be more symmetrical now but he’s significantly smaller than the other tortoise. This may be totally irrelevant, but it makes me wonder if his shell shape was an indication of development issues.

The light source for his enclosure is a mercury vapor bulb. I know that compact fluorescent bulbs have a reputation for causing eye problems. Has anyone heard of mercury vapor bulbs causing the same issues? Should I switch to a fluorescent tube for UV and a spot lamp for heat?

 

[JoesMum]

Are these tortoises kept together?

They're not social and should not be kept together. They don't get lonely and don't want a friend. I recommend separating them immediately.

I haven't heard if eye problems with MVB. It is possible the damage was done before you got them.

What temperatures do you have? There are 4 important ones: warm side, cool side, directly under the basking lamp and overnight minimum.

What substrate do you have? And what is the enclosure humidity?

Photos of your torts and the enclosure may help us to spot a problem.

 

[Neil Thompson]

Thank you for your response JoesMum. I am familiar with the debate regarding keeping tortoises in the same enclosure. When I purchased these animals from a breeder who is very well known and respected in this very forum, he informed me that while they do not get lonely, they do benefit from being with members of their own kind because this happens in nature, etc. Since this is not relevant to the topic of my post, I don’t see much reason to debate the issue here. If the tortoises display behavior towards each other that is problematic, rest assured that I will take appropriate action.

My substrate is about 60% topsoil, 40% peat moss. I water it about once a week, trying to keep the humidity around 40 – 50% on average.

I moved into a new house this may so the temps in their enclosure are currently a work in progress with the temps outside now dropping. Here are the temps today (taken with an infrared gun thing). I just soaked the soil this morning so they’re probably a little lower than usual:

Warm:80
Cool:70
Basking:90 – 95
Overnight: I have a CHE set to go at 75. I’m sure the cool side of the enclosure probably reaches the mid to low 60s.

 

[JoesMum]

Quick answer to your anger about my separation recommendation and then I'll take a look at the rest of your post.

I don't think my suggestion is irrelevant at all. I recommended separation because one of your tortoises is clearly unwell.

Bullying may be the problem. Equally it may have something that could infect the other. Separating them is a common sense measure I would have thought. When your tortoise has recovered then reintroduce them if you want to.

Are you able to get a close up of the sick tort's eyes?

 

[Neil Thompson]

Fair enough. With that in mind, there have been no signs of bullying and the other tortoise shows no sign of issues on top of being larger and being more active. Your advice is quite reasonable but challenging to implement but I'll give it some thought and see what I can do.

 

[JoesMum]

Apologies for the slow reply. I am trying to do it while watching the ATP tennis final and just wiped my entire reply I'll get there

 

[JoesMum]

As you say, this tort may have an inherent problem indicated by the shell deformity. Has this little one seen a herp vet?

The enclosure looks OK; I assume it's enclosed normally?

However, maybe both humidity and temperatures could be tweaked?

Are you relying on that analogue hygrometer/thermometer for readings? They're not very accurate.

It's much better to use a temperature gun type thermometer to get accurate spot measurements at tortoise level on the floor of the enclosure. They're inexpensive from Amazon or hardware store.

A probe type digital hygrometer is much more reliable for humidity measurements.

The humidity for babies should be 50-70% I think. Ut with higher humidity it is important to keep the temperatures up. Cold and humid are not good news.

Basking should be 95-100F and for babies like this I would be looking to keep the minimum temperature at at 80F in a closed chamber.

Have you read @Tom's comprehensive guide to Russian Tortoise care?
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

(Andy Murray won by the way!)

 

[Neil Thompson]

Thanks! I'll make some changes to bump the temp and humidity up a bit. I know I read the care sheet prior to getting these guys but a review is probably in order.

 

[JoesMum]

What are you feeding these two? Is their diet sound?

 

[Neil Thompson]

Over the warm months they got plenty of weeds but now that they're in shorter supply they mostly get romaine and mazuri. This year I've potted some weeds and seedum hoping that I can offer them a variety. Otherwise, I'm limited to what I can find in the grocery store.

 

[JoesMum]

Many keepers use pellets to supplement greens in winter. There's no problem with that.

I know you don't believe that bullying has been a problem, but one being bigger and more active is actually symptomatic.

It is possible that this smaller one hasn't been getting a fair share of the food and hence not getting enough of the right vitamins.

I still think you should separate these two at least until this little one is completely well and able to hold its own.

 

[TammyJ]

I love your enclosure! Seems like it's everything it should be. Just a few thoughts: (I am NO expert!)

1. I agree with JoesMom that the unwell tortoise should be separated from the other one. That's just a thing to do when one animal is not in good health.
2. You guys over in the USA seem to have a difficulty getting certain greens/vegetables in Winter. (Where I am it's a very tropical climate.) Is there a problem with sometimes giving the tortoises something like canned green peas/carrots/whatever, when you can't get, say, mustard greens or squash, watercress etc.? Some of the canned foods are sugar free. I don't know, never tried giving it to mine but would love to know.

 

[JoesMum]

Canned foods are frequently salted or have other chemicals added. You really do have to be careful. The can won't just have vegetable and water in it. I'd avoid them.

In winter fresh greens are hard to find. Store bought greens are available, but more limited in range. Many keepers use a pellet supplement and/or grow weeds in pots indoors in the winter months

 

[TammyJ]

Canned foods are frequently salted or have other chemicals added. You really do have to be careful. The can won't just have vegetable and water in it. I'd avoid them.

In winter fresh greens are hard to find. Store bought greens are available, but more limited in range. Many keepers use a pellet supplement and/or grow weeds in pots indoors in the winter months

OK. What about the frozen veggies in the packs? I don't know if they have preservatives like the canned foods?

 

[JoesMum]

OK. What about the frozen veggies in the packs? I don't know if they have preservatives like the canned foods?

You have to read the packet.

For green leaf eaters like Hermann's though few of the frozen veggies would make suitable food.

Frozen cabbage, kale and spinach can all be bought fresh in winter anyway so not much point

 

[Yvonne G]

I occasionally buy frozen ochra when I can't find fresh. But greens are better than veggies, and greens don't freeze well.