Having a nightmare experience - need some advice please

Mike5656

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Ok before I start this might turn out to be a lengthy post.

So As I put on my introduction post me and my partner bought a Sulcata on Saturday. We saw Blastoise and we automatically fell in love with her. The guy in the shop told us that they had only got her in an hour before we arrived and swapped her for another Tort (red flag no 1) and that she is around 2 - 3 years old so we asked if Blastoise had a health check up. (Red flag no.2) the guy told us that it is very hard to do a health check up on Tortoise's I was skeptical because when we researched into the Sulcata we found so much info on them but this particular pet shop has been open since I was a little kid (I am now 25) so I presumed that if they were dodgy they would of been shut down after 20+ years. so we bought the kit which included a thermometer, viv, lights, supplements and stuff to put on the flooring of the viv.

We got home, set everything up correctly she wasn't coming out of her shell, we thought that after moving her from one place to the other it was just shock so we got on with our day as normal and she decided to come out, however, I could tell something was off because she looked like she was struggling to walk on the flooring that was provided to us and was nearly falling over at some points (red flag number 3). I looked up the proper enclosures for Sulcatas and they are a lot bigger than what we got sold.

We then got reading the subject of 'pyramiding' and noticed that Blastoise had started to do so (red flag number 4) obviously we were concerned so we contacted the vet the next day and made an appoint shortly followed by a phone call to the pet shop. when we rang them they tried to assure us that the enclosure was the right size for her and that we could not return it as it is now second hand (red flag number 5) but there is no damage done to the enclosure what so ever and then continued to say that they have been selling exotic animals for over 20 years and they know what they are talking about.

So after getting nowhere with this arrogant A hole I hung up and we headed up to the hardware store and a shop called pets at home where we got new lights, sand, soil and wood and build our own enclosure. an hour after putting her in there and she seemed a lot more happier and active.

So yesterday we took her to the vet and the vet confirmed that the pyramiding is quite common for Sulcatas, however, the vet was quite supprised when we told her that she was around 2 years old as whoever had her last has really under fed her so she isn't as big as she would at her age. she also confirmed that the enclosure that was sold to us was way too small. After going to see the vet we felt a lot better and more educated.

I would like some advice on how to raise her confidence and gain her trust after reading some posts on here a lot of Sulcatas are quite confident and not shy at all, Blastoise always hides in her shell whenever we go near her enclosure. We just want her to know that we are going to care for her.

We are currently giving her grass and weeds, however, she seems to be sticking her nose up at it and only wanting the foods that she can only occasionally have, we think that her previous owner was feeding her the wrong type of foods so if any hints on how to get her to eat the grass would be appreciated.

and lastly we are going to be going to the pet shop we got her from and demand a refund on the kit they sold us as it was not fit for purpose, the lights were not hot enough, the viv was too small, I know for a fact they are going to be A holes about it again like they were on the phone, however, i was thinking of using this counter argument which the long and short of it is if they can sell a 2nd hand malnourished Sulcata and have no problems with it then they can take back the equipment which is basically brand new. anyone had any similar problems to this?

Sorry for the long winded post!

I have also attached a picture of the enclosure that we build, she seems soooooooo happy in it

enclosure new.jpg
 
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johnandjade

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good save :) , well done you :) welcome to the forum, experts on here will keep you right, forget everything pet store advised and i hope you do get some cash back.i would take recipes for what you had to pay out as a bargaining tool
 

Mike5656

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Thank you for the link and the welcome ^_^ the thing I am more angry about is the fact that if I didn't know any better and followed the advice of the pet shop in a few months or so she would be seriously ill =/ I am defiantly going to report them as they obviously have no clue.
 

DawnH

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First off. Welcome! Now breathe. :) Your girl is a beauty and is very lucky to have you guys! He/she does have some pyramiding but you can help make sure it does not get worse (and it will smooth some with proper care from here on out.)

In a nutshell, the people you are dealing with are idiots. READ this forum like crazy. Your habitat is too dry right now. Your substrate is wrong (no sand, it can cause impactions) and you need to make a top for your enclosure to keep humidity in (humidity = no pyramiding) you also need to address your lightening and heat source. Basically read this forum like crazy!! Read it when you eat, before you go to bed, on the toilet - whatever. You will find EVERYTHING you need right here. He/she has been through a lot so don't expect much these first few weeks. Make the necessary diet/environment/temp/humidity changes he/she needs and then give it a bit of time. Lord knows what the first two/three years was like! As far as getting your tort to eat grasses you might want to soak a Mazuri pellet and crumble it on top.

My guy just turned two... Sulcata's rock!


eat.jpg
 

johnandjade

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Thank you for the link and the welcome ^_^ the thing I am more angry about is the fact that if I didn't know any better and followed the advice of the pet shop in a few months or so she would be seriously ill =/ I am defiantly going to report them as they obviously have no clue.


your not alone, it's happened to alot of us, myself included. main thing is your here and looking to learn, im a yr in and have learned soooo much!
 

Mike5656

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First off. Welcome! Now breathe. :) Your girl is a beauty and is very lucky to have you guys! He/she does have some pyramiding but you can help make sure it does not get worse (and it will smooth some with proper care from here on out.)

In a nutshell, the people you are dealing with are idiots. READ this forum like crazy. Your habitat is too dry right now. Your substrate is wrong (no sand, it can cause impactions) and you need to make a top for your enclosure to keep humidity in (humidity = no pyramiding) you also need to address your lightening and heat source. Basically read this forum like crazy!! Read it when you eat, before you go to bed, on the toilet - whatever. You will find EVERYTHING you need right here. He/she has been through a lot so don't expect much these first few weeks. Make the necessary diet/environment/temp/humidity changes he/she needs and then give it a bit of time. Lord knows what the first two/three years was like! As far as getting your tort to eat grasses you might want to soak a Mazuri pellet and crumble it on top.

My guy just turned two... Sulcata's rock!


View attachment 142061

I am so confused we have got our advace from this PDF http://www.tortoise-protection-group.org.uk/site/files/Sulcata care sheet May 2008.pdf would you suggest covering the whole of the enclosure or only covering part of it?

When we took her to the vet she told us that sand would be ok for her as their normal habitat is sand anyway.

your Sulcata is so cute, what's his name?
 

Speedy-1

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Carol S

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Welcome to the Forum. The Forum is full of valuable information which will help you to raise a healthy tortoise.
 

Tom

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Hello and welcome. That care sheet is not the worst I've seen but it still has a some incorrect care info based on old incorrect assumptions about the wild habitat. In short, babies hatch during the monsoon season. It is hot, wet, humid and there are puddle, marshes and green growing food everywhere. Babies and smaller one benefit tremendously for simulating these conditions.

Please read those links that Speedy provided. All of this and more is explained in detail there.

About the behavior: They take a while to settle in to a new environment, and young ones and females tend to be a shyer than older males. Give it some time and soon the tortoise will be running over to you on sight. Do not rush it.

About the food: One technique that works well is to mix in very small amounts of finely chopped new foods with finely chopped old favorites, even when the old favorites are not the best. In time you just up the ratio and pretty soon your little piggy in a shell will eat anything you put information of her.

Good luck and congrats on the new baby.
 

Big Charlie

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Welcome! I'm sorry you had such a shaky start. I can relate to getting bad advice from the pet store. Tortoises can be shy until they get to know you. They can get easily stressed and it takes awhile to adapt to a new home. Approach her slowly and give her a chance to see that you aren't a threat.
 

Mike5656

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Thank you all for your warm welcomes and advice.

Just a quick update, we had to take her to the vet today as I found that she had a cut on her face. We have no idea how she got it but she has been given the all clear, I did ask the vet about the sand and she confirmed that sand or soil will do but suggested that we spray it with water if it is too dry. We have also adjusted her pen and added a partial shelter I have attached an image, this is the best we can do for now as she has cost us an arm and a leg so far and we need too eat as well haha but we have moved her hide. She hasn't come out of it since we took her to the vet so she is having a little sulk haha
 

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Tom

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You will eventually learn all the things we are telling you, but by then it might be too late.

Vets are not usually good sources of animal care info. I know that sounds crazy, but for all their vet schooling about surgery, anatomy and physiology, dosing medicines, etc., there is not one single semester on how to properly care for tortoises on a day to day basis. Most vets offer terrible advice based on old incorrect out-dated info, I'm sorry to say.

How do I know this? I've been working closely with many vets since 1986. It has been part of my profession for all that time. I am happy to call many of them friend and I have seen many many tortoise cases over all those years. My wife was a vet tech for 13 years and now works as a vet consultant, so I have all over her decades of experience to draw from too. I have several vet friends who call on me for tortoise advice. I joke with them that if I give them the answers to their questions then they have to give me a cut of the profits and they laugh. I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to vets. We have a couple vets on this forum that are fantastic and know exactly what they are talking about because they actually keep and breed their own tortoises. The school of hard knocks has educated them, as it has the rest of us, and as it will eventually educate you. I'm offering a short cut to you so your tortoise doesn't have to go through what some of ours have gone through for us to learn these lessons.

Sand impaction is very likely to be in your tortoises future if you don't change that substrate ASAP. It is not safe. I have seen far too many cases of sand impaction to not bring this to your attention. Ask your vet what the surgery to remove impacted items from inside a tortoise is like. They have to cut the whole plastron off with a saw and then rip it apart from the underlying tissue to get at the inside of the tortoise cut them open and remove the offending sand clump or other blockage. The sounds made by this procedure alone are enough to turn your stomach.

Nobody knows more about how to care for sulcatas than people who have been caring for lots of them for decades. I hope you will let us help you.

Please read these care sheets and follow the advice in them. Your vet is probably great at castrating dogs and cats, but he/she does not apparently understand the fine points of captive tortoise care.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
 

Mike5656

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Thanks Tom we have took your advice and changed the substrate. I wasn't trying to be a smart arse and thinking I know best, we was just getting conflicting information and was really confusing us. as everywhere we looked and people who we have spoken too all gave us differant advice. As soon as we read that post we immediately went out and got the right stuff hopefully based on what was on http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/. We have used to soil and we have baught tortoise terrain, we have also put Cuttlefish bone in there and a Cape Daisy plant. I have attached a photo of the pen as it is currantly. Any more advice will greatly welcomes.

Hopefully we have got it right this time. new substrate.jpg
 

Tom

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I really hate it that there is so much conflicting info out there. I don't know what to do about it though. Most new tortoise keepers, like you, have nothing but the best of intentions, but how is anyone supposed to know who to listen to? I was in your shoes 24 years ago, but the problem back then was that NOBODY had it right, and they mostly all agreed with each other. In the last few years great strides have been made in understanding the needs of captive tortoises, especially in regards to hydration and humidity. Some people are finally getting the right idea, but so many others still aren't. The right info is now out there, but it is buried amongst a lot of other conflicting info.

Anyhow, I can appreciate your dilemma and you have my sympathy…

About your enclosure:
1. You need a humid hide. I would rather you use a closed chamber where you could simulate the African rainy season that is so beneficial to young sulcatas, but if that is not currently possible, then at least a humid hide will help.
2. You need to ditch the red bulb and get a regular "white" daylight bulb for daytime use. A CHE set on a thermostat will keep him warm at night, but still dark.
3. What is in the second hood? Please tell me its not a coil type cfl UV bulb…
4. You need to suspend your lamps from over head. Those clamp always fail and best case it falls into your enclosure and doesn't burn or cut your tortoise. Worse case, your whole house burns down.
5. In the current pic I'm not seeing a water bowl.
6. The substrate looks very dry. It should be damp.
 

Mike5656

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About your enclosure:
1. You need a humid hide. I would rather you use a closed chamber where you could simulate the African rainy season that is so beneficial to young sulcatas, but if that is not currently possible, then at least a humid hide will help.
2. You need to ditch the red bulb and get a regular "white" daylight bulb for daytime use. A CHE set on a thermostat will keep him warm at night, but still dark.
3. What is in the second hood? Please tell me its not a coil type cfl UV bulb…
4. You need to suspend your lamps from over head. Those clamp always fail and best case it falls into your enclosure and doesn't burn or cut your tortoise. Worse case, your whole house burns down.
5. In the current pic I'm not seeing a water bowl.
6. The substrate looks very dry. It should be damp.

How do we go about making her a humid hide?, covering the top is not possible at this moment in time but when we do get round to it we was thinking of a tent like roof would that be ok?

We use a white bulb for the day time which is in the 2nd hood of the lamp which you mentioned and no it is not a coil bulb. We have a red bulb for the night time, the temps do not drop below 80.

Seeing as we do not have a roof for our enclosure how do we go about hanging the lamps from over head without using the clamps?

what do you mean water bowl?, do you mean somehwere for her to drink as we have that or do you mean somewhere for her to soak?

we have spreyed down the substrate with some water and should be damp enough =]
 

TMartin510

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They have lamp stands at local stores or online, I personally never used one but maybe some one else has and could let you know how it is, and could be an option
 

Tom

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How do we go about making her a humid hide?, covering the top is not possible at this moment in time but when we do get round to it we was thinking of a tent like roof would that be ok?

We use a white bulb for the day time which is in the 2nd hood of the lamp which you mentioned and no it is not a coil bulb. We have a red bulb for the night time, the temps do not drop below 80.

Seeing as we do not have a roof for our enclosure how do we go about hanging the lamps from over head without using the clamps?

what do you mean water bowl?, do you mean somehwere for her to drink as we have that or do you mean somewhere for her to soak?

we have spreyed down the substrate with some water and should be damp enough =]

Every question you are asking is explained in the threads that have been linked for you multiple times. Forgive my frustration, but have you read them?

I would not bother trying to retro-fit a top cover. I would buy or build a closed chamber. Open tables are sometimes okay for adult Testudo species, but they are just not suitable for most anything else because you cannot maintain the needed conditions in them.

You should not be using a red bulb. Tortoises see colors better than we do, so if you can see it they can see it and it messes with there heads. Use a CHE and use it with a thermostat to control your ambient temps 24/7.

You can use the ZooMed lamp stands, or you can build an over head bar out of 2x4s or closet dowel or what ever you like. Sometime I put my enclosures under a shelf and hand the lamps from the bottom of the shelf.

There needs to be a shallow water bowl in the enclosure that is big enough for the tortoise to climb into and soak, but nothing with tall sides that the tortoise could flip over and drown in. Terra cotta plant saucers sunk into the substrate work best.

Spraying the substrate only temporarily dampens to surface layer and it quickly evaporates. You need to dump lots of water into the substrate, mix it in and then hand pack that substrate down to keep the mess down. Looks like you might even need to add more once you pack it down. That is one reason why I prefer orchid bark for sulcatas.

All of this and more is explained in the care sheet. Won't you please read it?
 

UnicornSploosh

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Having been in the same boat recently and knowing that I have seen amazing changes in my tortoises since taking the advice offered here I suggest you make as many of the changes as you can as quickly as you can.

Pot saucers are really inexpensive and my babies spend soooo much time in them. CHEs aren't terribly expensive and make a huge difference. I bought hanging plant hangers from Lowes to hold my lights. They were like $3 and just screw into the wall.

I know it can be expensive to make changes. I spent over $450 on my original setup and tortoises only to have spent another $150-200 recently with some things still awaiting purchase. Every change has made a difference. My babies went from shy and incredibly inactive poor eaters to little eating machines that tell me off when they feel I'm interfering with their eat machine likeness lol.

It's worth it. Even if you have to make small changes at first, do as much as you can.
 

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