Fully Grown Female Sulcata Tortoise for Sale in Arizona

[Yvonne G]

RE: Fully Grown Female Sulcata Tortoise for Sale

I'm a little confused...Cory: Is the picture you've put up of the same tortoise that the OP is selling? And why did YOU post this picture?

Ok, I'm probably way off base here, however, I had Dudley and a female (a year older than Dudley) here at the same time, so I was able to lay them both on their back and get a good visual comparison between the male/female sulcata form. She had laid eggs, and was proven female. The anal scutes on the male were in a definite "V" shape, while on the female, they were in a soft "U" shape. And look at Dudley's gular:

Its longer than that of the OP's tortoise, and has an upward curve, great for tipping over an opponent.

I really hate to disagree with Danny, because he knows his stuff...however, I have to say, I believe Edward is female.

 

[spikethebest]

RE: Fully Grown Female Sulcata Tortoise for Sale

Edwards Mom emailed me the pics and I posted them here.

thanks everyone for your responses.

 

[Tom]

RE: Fully Grown Female Sulcata Tortoise for Sale

Well now, I'm thoroughly confused. Wouldn't males have male parts? I've seen males and they make little to no effort to hide their maleness. In 12 years (We got her when she was 6 weeks old in 1998), she has never shown a long tail or any attachments nearby.

A few years back we had a neighbor with 2 male sulcatas. They were about 10 years old and positively huge, much bigger than Edward is at 12. Their front gular shoots were much longer and bigger. Their concave plaston looked like a bowl and could have held water in it.

1. Neither of my two 12 year old males have very long gular scutes. Bert, the one who I though was female for all those years, has very small ones. Much smaller than Edward's, and Scooters aren't much bigger than Bert's. I never saw either of my males flagging (showing their male parts). The only time I ever see their parts is when they are on my female doing the deed. The degree of plastron concavity is variable. Scooter was always very concave, Bert was flat for 8 or 9 years and even now at 12 he's only a little concave. Females are totally flat. No ambiguity. If there is ANY concavity. Its a male.

Edward was 7 at the time. I invited the oldest one, Bubba, over to mate with her. He was all over her until he finally mounted her. Within minutes, he tried to flip her on her back after he was done. She didn't get hurt, but we sent him home in a hurry. She never did lay a clutch. The vet told us she was too young. The neighbor moved away, and I never tried to mate her again.

2. Scooter used to constantly mount Bert. For about 10 years he did this. Even after I realized Bert was a male. At around 10-11 years old Bert had had enough and they started battling. Scooter, the bigger, more dominant one kept losing and ending up flipped. They are separated now and forever. My point is: Males don't flip females. They can't breed them that way. Males DO mount other males in a dominance display, much like dogs. Really, male sulcatas will just mount just about anything as they feel frisky all the time. Additionally, from everything I've heard, age has nothing to do with sulcata breeding. Its all size. The number I've heard for females is 17".

I really do see what you all are saying, but Bubba was a monster, much more aggressive than Edward, and way bigger. He was without a doubt male. Edward doesn't look or act anything like he did. And those male tortoises didn't burrow. Edward has made a really nice little city underground, something I've heard females do for nesting.

3. They are all different. I've raised a lot of sulcatas. Some are big and dominant like my Scooter or your friend's Bubba. Some are less so like Edward and Bert. If yours had no heat over the winter and lived outside in a burrow, he would probably grow slower than another one who had warmer conditions year round. Did Bubba's owner have a heated house for theirs? Some sulcatas dig, some don't. It has nothing to do with sex. None of mine dig. Females don't dig burrows for nesting. They just dig a fresh new nest hole for egg deposition. Sometimes they will dig a few shallow "test" holes first. This has nothing to do with burrowing.

I'm learning a lot through this forum, and regardless, Edward needs a bigger home with much more room to burrow and lots of grazing land. She (he?) is clearly worth a lot to the right new owner. My price remains $200 or best offer. I've seen many of them (male and female) being sold for over $1000. I will do my best to make sure Edward gets the best home possible, and I'd like it to be as soon as possible. It's not easy getting rid of a family pet, but I know it is best for Edward.

Really appreciate your interest in all of this.

Edward's Mom

Good luck finding a home for him. He's a great looking tortoise. I'd still love to know how you housed him when he was a baby. He looks much better than a typical captive raised sulcata, as far as shell smoothness.

 

[RV's mom]

RE: Fully Grown Female Sulcata Tortoise for Sale

Tempe isn't very far. Would you like to make an offer?



I'm sorry.. I've one girl about 10 and I don't have space for another tort. Also, in looking at the pics, I also believe your baby-doll is a boy. If I had room for a second pen, away from my female - I'd reconsider, but the yard is only big enough for her ~ and she's a handful as it is! Good luck!

 

[Edward's Mom]

RE: Fully Grown Female Sulcata Tortoise for Sale

Sorry, Tom. I still believe Edward is female. Look at the pics of her on her back. Her belly is flat. I've heard that about 10% of males try to kill females after mating by flipping them. Edward is 12, not 8 or 9. Emy's description of the female fits Edward very well. And her pic of male gulars is more accurate too. I've been looking at internet pics and females have gulars that look very much like Edwards: short and flat. Bubba's gular was huge and it curved. Edward didn't stand a chance when he tried to flip her.

The reality is, I guess the only way to be 100% sure is to mate her and find out. She has been raised in captivity and has been treated very well. If that somehow alters male/female appearance, then there's no way to be sure at this point in time. It seems pretty unreasonable and illogical to think that spoiling a family pet can make it hard to differentiate its sex.

As for how we raised her when she was young, Tom. We kept her in a large fish tank until she outgrew it. We ground up a variety of foods and added calcium powder. We provided shelter and a heat lamp. When she got bigger, we penned her up outside, but brought her in during cold winters. She eventually got tired of being brought in and began burrowing, at which point we couldn't reach her to bring her in. She's been outside ever since. We feed her whenever she comes out of her burrow...most of the plant trimmings from the yard and all sorts of grocery produce--trimmed scraps from the manager, bunches of kale, collards and mustard greens and at least 1 or 2 apples everyday. She absolutely loves broccoli and cabbage. We purchase a lot of produce, but also give her whatever else we can get.

It looks like we might be rebuilding Edward's home this weekend. She needs more space, and until we can find a suitable owner, we've got to do what we can to give it to her. With all this added confusion from the forum, I'm not sure what to do about placing her anymore. We sure don't want her to end up in the wrong home. Ugh!

Edward's Mom

 

[Yvonne G]

RE: Fully Grown Female Sulcata Tortoise for Sale

Boy sulcatas really like to play with their "equipment" as they start to mature sexually. Its hard to miss that event, as they do it all the time for a few weeks until they get tired of it and used to the equipment. This happens at around 25 to 35 pounds, sometimes earlier. If you haven't seen this by now, I think its a pretty safe bet that Edward is a girl. We have quite a few Arizona members. I hope you are able to find her a good home before the rainy season. Good luck!

 

[Candy]

I know that you're confused about us saying that it's male, but how did we confuse you otherwise? Edward sounds like he's been raised very well the only thing that Tom was trying to find out is how you raised him with such a smooth shell. We're always looking for answers on that one. He is beautiful. Don't let us confuse you because there are so many Sulcata owners on here and they know a lot about the species. Being on here will only help you to find the right owner for your Edward don't worry about that. The people on here really care about tortoise and would never lead you down the wrong path trust that. Good luck and we will still try to help you find a good home for Edward.

 

[TylerStewart]

Dang, and I had just convinced an old girlfriend of mine in Phoenix to bring it down to me this weekend.... Scratch that - it's a male. Thanks for posting Cory.

 

[Edward's Mom]

LOL! Edward doesn't even know she has a down there, Emy and she's certainly never played with anything in that vicinity.

Another thing regarding her shell, when she was little, I'd bathe her at least once a week and massage olive oil into it. She loved the extra attention and we all got to see the different colors depending on what she was eating at the time. Her shell gets much darker when she has a lot of red cabbage in her diet. In summer her shell is almost always lighter because of the lighter color produce available. These days, I hose her off regularly, but use canola oil instead, and I don't oil her nearly as much because of her digging. The dirt tends to stick to her shell too much if I do.

I don't think anyone is trying to give me incorrect information on here, Candy. Based on the entire discussion and 12 years of raising Edward, I'm convinced she's female. Vets have told me so. Tortoise enthusiasts who have met her have told me so, and now at least a couple people on this forum have told me so. Even my personal research has confirmed it.

No matter what, Edward will have a good home. We may not have a palace, but we will continue to provide for her as best as we can until we find the right home for her. It might mean tapping into some extra creativity, but Edward will be just fine no matter what

Thanks for all the discussion and feedback!
Edward's Mom

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, it has to have been the olive oil rubs during her growing years that kept the carapace growing smoothly. We've always said to not add topicals, but in your case, I can see it worked. Edward is a beauty, and a perfect example of a nice smooth carapace.

Tyler...you're missing the boat. Edward's a girl!

 

[TylerStewart]

Tyler...you're missing the boat. Edward's a girl!

Wanna bet? If there was a way to prove it, I'd place a bet. If it was a girl, it likely would have laid eggs by now - fertile or not. The real features that a male has (concave stomach, gulars) are things that show up later on with more size. To compare those things to a big mature male is not a fair comparison. The tail is clearly clearly male. Without it being a bigger size, the other things don't always show yet. I've seen plenty of mid-sized males with seemingly flat bellies. Plus, you can see in the first photo, the belly is at least starting to be concave. The anal scutes are way too wide for a female.

 

[Edward's Mom]

Since Edward has such a lengthy burrow underground, who's to say she hasn't laid eggs yet? Her tunnel system is quite magnificent to be sure. She certainly has room somewhere down there to turn around and come back out each day to eat. It's one-way in and one way out...not a lot of room around her shell, fits it pretty much like a glove. Every year she widens it just enough to fit around herself. Tortoises are incredible animals to be sure. Owning Edward has been quite the educational experience for my entire family and many friends and relatives too.

Edward's Mom

 

[Tom]

Yvonne, I respect you and truly admire you. You know that. I don't want to be contradictory, but none of my male sulcatas ever did that. I'm with them and observing them all the time and always have been. There is a full time staff of seven at the ranch where they live and their pen borders where we work all day so they are nearly constantly in view of several people except at night when they retire to their heated houses.

Edward's Mom, Put Edward with a female for a few minutes and watch what happens. You don't have to let them finish the deal and actually breed. You'll see it pretty quickly.
Also, just to be clear I'm doing nothing but complimenting you on the job you've done raising Edward. Whatever you did, you did it far better than almost everyone. We could all benefit (and so would our tortoises) from learning the details of exactly how you did it. I think you might not realize how exceptionally good looking Edward is. Most sulcatas, including mine, grow up with at least some degree of pyramiding. In most cases, its purely cosmetic and they are still very healthy, but they appear different than their wild caught counterparts. All of us are in the process of learning exactly what causes and or prevents it. There is a pretty strong correlation with humidity and moisture for babies being able to prevent pyramiding. So, can you tell us, was it very humid in Edward's baby set-up? What did you use for substrate? How often did you soak him? Ever spray the shell or get him wet? Did you use a swamp cooler to cool his room? Anything like that?

Thank you for what you've given us already and I hope you stick around. You are very welcome here.

 

[spikethebest]

Edward's Mom,

I agree 100% with what Tom is saying, you are very welcome to this forum, and I wish that some how you can keep Edward for yourself, because he has provided you and your family with so much love and joy. Also, Edward is probably one of the most good looking tortoises we have ever seen here raised in captivity. I know you are new to this forum, but I promise you this, your tortoise has an extremely smooth shell (called the carapace).

Tom is working very hard to figure out why this happens. Most sulcatas raised in captivity have what is called pyramiding on their shell, it looks like cones sticking up, and that is very bad for them. There is a HUGE controversy in the tortoise world on what causes it. For 30+ years people thought it was over feeding and/or feeding to high of a protein diet. Now some people think it is a lack of humidity that causes it. Some people think its a combination of many factors.

Some how, some way, you did everything completely right, and Edward has turned out very healthy, and very beautiful. So if nothing else comes from your post on selling him, I hope that your experience can educate the rest of the tortoise community, and other tortoises around the world can benefit from it.

Thank you again for visiting, and I hope you stay around for awhile.

If you have any pictures of Edward growing up, or the setup, or anything at all, please email them to me, and I will post them. I know with 100% certainty that there are many people interested in how you raised your little one so smoothly.

 

[Edward's Mom]

Tom, I don't have a male or female handy. I've already put her with a male as you know. Arizona is extremely dry. Most of the moisture Edward has always gotten is from her food intake. Fresh water has always been made available for her drinking pleasure, but she usually walks through it and tips it over. Other than regular baths, we didn't do anything special. It's been 12 years. I don't remember what substrate we used to buy; for all I know it could have been discontinued even. We soaked her in the kitchen sink when she was little, usually when we gave her a bath. She loved to just sit there in the shallow water and drink. However, being a land tortoise, we never let her soak for long periods of time, and we never provided misters or swamp coolers for her. Honestly, we just loved her and treated her as best we could. I guess it worked, huh?

It appears I've got a tortoise I probably won't sell here, which is why I joined the forum in the first place. If I can't find a home for her, I'll probably check in from time to time just for kicks, but if she gets a new home, I won't own a tortoise anymore so there will be no point. I'm a woman of faith, and I believe God knows where Edward's home should be. I trust that all will work out for the best, but if anyone would like an "exceptionally good looking tortoise" that has been very well taken care of, please do let me know. Edward deserves a bigger lot with more room to dig and free roaming grazing land.

Thanks again for your interaction on this thread. Btw, Tyler, male features not being identifiable by age 12? That sure doesn't sound right to me. And a tail that no one ever sees? How does that clearly define it as male? She still makes duty, and there's no indication of her moving a long tail out of the way to do so. Not to be too graphic, folks, but hers are about as big as a large to medium sized dog's too. You would think she'd need to move a tail to do them. Just saying...

---

I take it you're not planning to come and pick up Edward this Sunday, Spike. Well, I am a writer. Perhaps I've just found the perfect book to write. Expect the unexpected...

 

[TylerStewart]

Btw, Tyler, male features not being identifiable by age 12? That sure doesn't sound right to me. And a tail that no one ever sees? How does that clearly define it as male? She still makes duty, and there's no indication of her moving a long tail out of the way to do so. Not to be too graphic, folks, but hers are about as big as a large to medium sized dog's too. You would think she'd need to move a tail to do them. Just saying...

That is correct. 12 years is not that old for a sulcata, and really, it's a size thing more than an age thing. Eggs are not typically laid in the borrow, but outside of it, which is why I suggested that you would have probably seen eggs by now. That was only one of multiple reasons I call it a male. The tail is visible in a few of the photos that were posted, and that is much more of a tail than a female would have. Male tails fold over to the side like that in almost all species, where a female sulcata has basically a nub tail. Really, it's your tortoise, and if you're convinced it's a female, that's your right to. I'm not going to spend more time pointing out the reasons, but if you sell it to someone calling it a "female," they're going to be upset if they take a trip there to get it and see that it's clearly a male (because yes, it is a male). Had you ever answered my PM, I would have asked for the same photos you sent to Spike, and I would have come to the same conclusion (male). I had a driver lined up for tomorrow.

 

[chadk]

Interesting discussion. I'll have to post pics of mine and see what the experts think...

The diet sounds really interesting and contrary to the general consensus... a few apples a day... cabbage... But the tort seems healthy enough (shell is only one indicator though).

The smoothness of the shell clearly looks to have a least a little to do with the burrowing. You can see all the ridges are worn down from contact. Torts that don't have a chance to burrow like that will clearly still have small raised bumps from pyramiding at a young age.


I'd love to see pics of the tort before he\she started burrowing... Do you have any??

Best of luck finding a great new home for Edward!!

 

[Edward's Mom]

Ok, new to the forum as of only yesterday...
You asked me to deliver Edward, Tyler. I had no idea you were making plans to get her. Obviously I can't misrepresent Edward's sex, which is why this discussion has become so lengthy in the first place. I had no way of knowing you were still interested in owning Edward, Tyler, so when Spike asked to see pics, I took and submitted them, especially since he had every intention of coming to get her. I never intended to slight you in the least.

At this point, I have rearranged Edward's pen. The back neighbor isn't thrilled with her underground tunnel system going into his yard. I just came in from adding damp sheets to a large corner for her because it's our hot season and she's used to being underground during the day. I'm hoping this will help her stay cool since she no longer has access to her burrow. Under the circumstances, I hope she gets used to her new pen, as this entire discussion has left me with little alternative.

I'm disturbed that anyone would question my integrity about selling Edward. She's been our baby since she could fit in the palm of our hands. If it was so easy to tell what sex she is, there would have been 100% concensus right here on the forum. Since she was about 7 years old, we've been told by those who should know that she's a girl. There have only been replies from about 4 or 5 people on this forum, and they can't conclusively agree what sex she is. I've had several more than that over the years tell me Edward is a girl. Why you would even suggest I would misrepresent Edward's sex to sell her...yea, better not go there, Tyler. That really wasn't very nice of you though!

Anyway, Edward is not a problem. I was hoping to give her a better home, that's all. She's been so cute needing to be pet since we blocked her hole. She hasn't given us this much attention in a long time...coming up and nudging us like she used to...following us around even after we put fresh food out. You guys are missing out. Edward's really cool and whoever gets her will have one of the greatest pets ever born!

 

[Seiryu]

I'm disturbed that anyone would question my integrity about selling Edward. She's been our baby since she could fit in the palm of our hands. If it was so easy to tell what sex she is, there would have been 100% concensus right here on the forum. Since she was about 7 years old, we've been told by those who should know that she's a girl. There have only been replies from about 4 or 5 people on this forum, and they can't conclusively agree what sex she is. I've had several more than that over the years tell me Edward is a girl. Why you would even suggest I would misrepresent Edward's sex to sell her...yea, better not go there, Tyler. That really wasn't very nice of you though!

Anyway, Edward is not a problem. I was hoping to give her a better home, that's all. She's been so cute needing to be pet since we blocked her hole. She hasn't given us this much attention in a long time...coming up and nudging us like she used to...following us around even after we put fresh food out. You guys are missing out. Edward's really cool and whoever gets her will have one of the greatest pets ever born!

I don't think anyone is questioning your integrity. I think it's more along the lines of, since it's split both ways as to whether it's a male or female, they are trying to say just sell her as an unknown.

And since multiple people were inquiring about actually getting the tortoise, I think it's their right to make 100% certain (by their own investigation on the pictures) that Edward is female. They want to make sure they know what they are getting.

Maybe more pics of her plastron, with better angles would help? I do see her plastron is concaved and the gular scutes look to me like they are starting to angle upwards.

 

[Tom]

I'm not at home right now, so I can't go take pics. Will somebody please post plastron pics showing the anal scutes and tails of their proven males and females. If its still light when I get home I'll do it.