Does diet contribute to pyramiding.

Anyfoot

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Craig:

I think we will always see minor differences in "perfectly" kept individuals, no matter what we do. We will not see the dramatic pyramiding, but will get slight pyramiding in some. I believe that may have to do with genetics, just as different individual humans have very different growing fingernails - some thick and hard, other almost paper thin. I've heard enough women complain about that in reference to keeping their nails!
.

When you say genetics, what do you mean? Are you saying if both parents have severe pyramiding the chances of offspring to grow smooth are slim, Or are you saying what both parents should have looked like if cared for correctly would be genetic. When does pyramiding become genetic?
 

Markw84

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When you say genetics, what do you mean? Are you saying if both parents have severe pyramiding the chances of offspring to grow smooth are slim, Or are you saying what both parents should have looked like if cared for correctly would be genetic. When does pyramiding become genetic?
I don't know!!

I am allowing for genetics to be a possible effect. Whether inherited or random. Very possibly an epigenetic factor could be at work as well. My example of fingernail differences in humans. Not sure if that is totally inherited, but some people are pre-disposed to thin fingernails, etc.
 

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ALFALFA,=This legume is very high in protein, and although a little will not harm a tortoise, it is best avoided.

BROCCOLI,=Broccoli contains goitrogens that interfere with thyroid activity and could damage the liver and kidneys. Therefore, although Broccoli is not actually toxic, you are advised to not feed it to your tortoise.

KALE,= Kale has a high calcium content and only half the oxalic acid of dandelions, making it a potentially nutritious food.
Unfortunately, like all the brassicas, it is also high in goitrogens (which interfere with iodine uptake, resulting in thyroid problems). However, Kale also has a high iodine content, which lessens the goitrogen effect and it is therefore acceptable to feed to your tortoise in moderation, especially in winter with non-hibernating tortoises, when fresh weeds are scarce.
SPINACH=Spinach contains a high level of calcium, but it also contains oxalic acid which binds with calcium in the diet and prevents the tortoise from absorbing and using it. In addition, it possesses a high level of calcium oxalate crystals which contribute to the formation of kidney stones. Some of the calcium oxalate is in the form of needle-shaped crystals called raphides, and when consumed in large amounts these can irritate the skin and mucous membranes in the mouth and throat.
So although Spinach is not toxic as such, and small amounts are unlikely to cause a tortoise any great damage, given the potential it has to limit calcium intake and cause internal irritation, we do not recommend that people feed it to their tortoises.
and the odd STRAWBERRY =
Older leaves develop toxins, so only offer young leaves as part of a varied diet and never the fruit, unless your tortoise is a tropical fruit-eating species. Contains tannins.
Often in the past, feeding canned dog or cat food was recommended as well as other misguided information was passed down to keepers to the point that even many zoos were caring for their tortoises incorrectly.
One of the wonderful aspects of this tortoise community here at the forum is that we all equally share our pains and our gains regarding the raising of tortoises. For instance in regard to an idea you postulated concerning feeding wild hatchlings and this putting their growth food ratio all catty-wompus and out of sorts I need to point out that most tortoises in their native range are endangered either critically or at the least at a threatened level. This in and of itself would produce the very situation you would be providing by offering abundant food to hatchlings, (less competition for food resources=more proper food for the remaining native tortoises. Food/growth ratio all thrown out with the trash. Yet we still don't find real wild tortoises with pyramiding present.
My conclusion is that pyramiding is caused by a lack of hydration which leads to the death of cells on the outside ring of the scutes. This repeated live/die cycle continues until the cells just keep piling up on each other creating a pyramid. Hope this helps you figure it out. Remember, I've never seen a smooth sulcata smoke tobacco, but this doesn't convince me that pyramiding is caused by tortoises that do not smoke so I won't be teaching any of mine to pick up the habit soon to remain smooth. I'm hopping spelling and grammar we're all good in this thread, it's much too long for me to proof read it all.
food for thought:) thanks
 

Tom

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Hmmmmmmm. The gist seems to be that inadequate moisture inhibits proper bone growth.:eek:

That is not a statement I would agree with. The moisture level has little to do with bone growth. The state of the keratin has everything to do with pyramided bone under it, and the state of the keratin has to do with moisture, as Adam pointed out.

In other words: Overly dry conditions cause the keratin to pull the bone underneath it into the wrong shape.
 

Anyfoot

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Does anyone know why some torts seem to grow with a nice white thin line of keratin(think it's keratin) following the growth steadily and some torts seem to develop a crevice that is followed by keratin filling the crevice up after. The ones that don't develop the crevice seem to grow smoother. It's as though the crevice growing type have the keratin growth lagging behind. An example of both below.
IMG_0490.JPG IMG_0519.JPG
 

saginawhxc

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When you say genetics, what do you mean? Are you saying if both parents have severe pyramiding the chances of offspring to grow smooth are slim, Or are you saying what both parents should have looked like if cared for correctly would be genetic. When does pyramiding become genetic?
Even if genetics plays a part, I don't think it's pyramiding itself that is genetic, but maybe just succeptabilty to pyramiding.

Lets put it this way. It isn't the fact that many people in my family have heart disease that puts me at risk, it's the likelihood that there is something in my genetics that makes me more succeptable to heart disease.
 

Alaskamike

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Does anyone know why some torts seem to grow with a nice white thin line of keratin(think it's keratin) following the growth steadily and some torts seem to develop a crevice that is followed by keratin filling the crevice up after. The ones that don't develop the crevice seem to grow smoother. It's as though the crevice growing type have the keratin growth lagging behind. An example of both below.
View attachment 215185 View attachment 215186
I've noticed this as well. Surly there is a good biological explanation, but for the life of me I can't think what it is.

There is so much we don't know. The nature / nurture debate will continue. As it should. Even in identical twin studies , over time , there are differences both physically & emotionally that become pronounced.

Without getting all technical - same parent siblings will react to & respond differently to diet , exercise , & environment. Our body chemistries are not identical. Our mental & psychological makups vary. Even our ability to process & extract our physical needs from food vary.

I have a brother who is lactos intolerant ( I'm not ) and another who can't get anywhere near poison ivy ( but I can pick it up w/o a problem ).

My mom swore all she had to do was look at a piece of cake & would gain 5lbs. Lol.

We would like to know as much as possible to provide optimum care for our torts. And are learning all the time. But an exact science it is not.
 

Anyfoot

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I've noticed this as well. Surly there is a good biological explanation, but for the life of me I can't think what it is.

There is so much we don't know. The nature / nurture debate will continue. As it should. Even in identical twin studies , over time , there are differences both physically & emotionally that become pronounced.

Without getting all technical - same parent siblings will react to & respond differently to diet , exercise , & environment. Our body chemistries are not identical. Our mental & psychological makups vary. Even our ability to process & extract our physical needs from food vary.

I have a brother who is lactos intolerant ( I'm not ) and another who can't get anywhere near poison ivy ( but I can pick it up w/o a problem ).

My mom swore all she had to do was look at a piece of cake & would gain 5lbs. Lol.

We would like to know as much as possible to provide optimum care for our torts. And are learning all the time. But an exact science it is not.
Thanks Mike.
 

Anyfoot

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Thoughts please

Our goal is to grow a tortoise so that the growth rate is on par with the carapace hydration so the new keratin is supple enough that it can fill up the crevices as the bone grows. Scute plates shift with the bone growth, and moist supple new keritin follows filling in the crevices left behind from the shifting of the scute plates.

If the growth rate to hydration level is out of balance(not on par) then we have a problem.
Growing a tort slow or fast(within reason) is ok as long as the carapace hydration is adequate enough for the faster growth.

If we look at a wild redfoot the carapace is bowling ball smooth, some of it may be from abrasion but you can see the actual growth rings are tighter giving an overall smoother surface finish of the carapace. If you look at our CB torts, and from what I've seen the farm bred redfoots they have wider growth rings giving the effect of peaks and valleys if you zoom in close enough.
The FB and CB when kept correctly have an overall rounded carapace shape but not the smooth surface finish of a WC.

One way of getting a tort to pyramid is raise it in dry conditions. The faster it grows in dry conditions the steeper the pyramiding will be. We have come off PAR with growth and hydration.

Back to does diet contribute to pyramiding.
If I max out hydration. So if I soak daily, spray often and have humidity at 100% is it still possible to take the growth rate out of parity with hydration. I think I can feed that much protein it makes the tort grow that fast the crevices are too wide for the following amount of keratin to fill up a crevice that are too wide from extreme fast growth. No matter how supple the keratin is there isn't enough keratin to fill in a great big wide crevice, so it sets hard without levelling off to the previous keratin growth ring. In time this gives the same effect as a tort grown in dry conditions.

If the above is correct then how would nature balance what we are thinking is such a fine line. Im thinking it can only be slow growth, and this is also why wild torts look bowling ball smooth.

Also this is the only thought that I can think of that falls in with what @Markw84 and @cdmay
Think. Mark believes it's about carapace hydration and cdmay believes slow growth is key, I'm thinking that both are right, and both fall into how you @Markw84 believe they actually grow.
Also this would answer why yrs back and even now some thought pyramiding was due to excess protein. It's not the protein it's anything that is a rich food source that takes the growth rate above and beyond hydration level. Its at the opposite end of the scale as growing a tort dry.
I'm assuming the problem is magnified with omnivores purely because herbivores are not fed protein.
I reckon I'm seeing growth beyond my hydration capabilities causing some minor pyramiding, and it's because I'm letting my babies pig out every 10 days on protein. I've been feeding cat meat carl :eek: For ease.
I still believe reds eat protein as babies but naturally in the form of beetles,ants, slugs etc.
The first 3 I raised that are smooth were fed 1 pinkie per wk each.

Anyway. Can someone either prove me right or wrong please.

A dry torts keratin can't keep up with any growth.
A hydrated torts keratin can't keep up with extreme excessive growth.
We've effectively created the same scenario but at opposite ends of the scale.

I would never have thought torts would give me sleepless nights.
 

William Lee Kohler

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Just an observation. Several years ago at the San Diego Zoo I saw some young Galaps about 12-15" size raised from their Galap herd. They were surprisingly quite pyramided. They were fed well, had plenty of hydration and sunshine. This would seem to disagree with your premises:confused:. I believe they are one of the premier Galap zoos in the world and work closely with the Conservancy.
 

Anyfoot

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What do you mean fed well?
If they were allowed to bask in the sunshine as babies, that would be the drying out end of the scale that causes pyramiding I'm thinking.
 

Markw84

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Craig

Not in agreement with your hypothesis here. Pyramiding is caused by keratin growth deforming the underlying bone. The bone itself deforms and creates larger and larger valleys. In order for that to happen, the keratin growth is continuing, not being in a state to "not catch up to bone growth". Its just in dry conditions, the keratin dries too quickly, before it has filled in to its thickness yet. The stiffer, drying keratin that then forms, forces the continuing keratin growth in a downward direction. It is not that keratin growth stops, or cannot keep up. It is keratin growth drying while still forming its depth.

Now with faster growth, you have a larger, wider seam that is exposed to drying conditions, if present. So it would seem easier to pyramid a faster growing tortoise, or in another way of looking at it - it is more critical that conditions are humid and correct for a longer and more consistent basis for a faster growing tortoise.

This is where I depart a bit from @cdmay I feel wild tortoise will grow just as fast, but they do it in spurts and only in the prime time of year, which may only be 4 months or so out of the 12. Its just in those prime growing times, the conditions are correct for the tortoise to find moist, cover and places to dig in that are also moist to keep the shell well hydrated. The same conditions that allow nutritious foods to grow, also provide puddles and moist ground in which to burrow and cover. Very young tortoises are rarely encountered in the wild. That is very well because they are mostly covered up somewhere - both for protection from predators, and also, coincidentally keeping nice, moist substrate on top of their shells. In the drier times of year, they are not growing, but aestivating. No new growth to dry out. Nice tight growth rings created.
 

Anyfoot

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Craig

Not in agreement with your hypothesis here. Pyramiding is caused by keratin growth deforming the underlying bone. The bone itself deforms and creates larger and larger valleys. In order for that to happen, the keratin growth is continuing, not being in a state to "not catch up to bone growth". Its just in dry conditions, the keratin dries too quickly, before it has filled in to its thickness yet. The stiffer, drying keratin that then forms, forces the continuing keratin growth in a downward direction. It is not that keratin growth stops, or cannot keep up. It is keratin growth drying while still forming its depth.

Now with faster growth, you have a larger, wider seam that is exposed to drying conditions, if present. So it would seem easier to pyramid a faster growing tortoise, or in another way of looking at it - it is more critical that conditions are humid and correct for a longer and more consistent basis for a faster growing tortoise.

This is where I depart a bit from @cdmay I feel wild tortoise will grow just as fast, but they do it in spurts and only in the prime time of year, which may only be 4 months or so out of the 12. Its just in those prime growing times, the conditions are correct for the tortoise to find moist, cover and places to dig in that are also moist to keep the shell well hydrated. The same conditions that allow nutritious foods to grow, also provide puddles and moist ground in which to burrow and cover. Very young tortoises are rarely encountered in the wild. That is very well because they are mostly covered up somewhere - both for protection from predators, and also, coincidentally keeping nice, moist substrate on top of their shells. In the drier times of year, they are not growing, but aestivating. No new growth to dry out. Nice tight growth rings created.
So what your saying is no matter how wide the new seem is there is a thin continuous layer of keratin ready to expand and fill the seem?

I understand that wild torts will only grow when conditions permit them to. But what about the actual time its growing for. For example, lets say a wild tort only has 6 months per year in ideal conditions and a captive tort has 12 months. Are you suggesting that both torts will grow at the same pace during the wild torts 6 month ideal conditions period. If yes, why are wild torts bowling ball smooth and captive bred are not? Is it purely abrasion on the wild carapace.
 

Markw84

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So what your saying is no matter how wide the new seem is there is a thin continuous layer of keratin ready to expand and fill the seem?

I understand that wild torts will only grow when conditions permit them to. But what about the actual time its growing for. For example, lets say a wild tort only has 6 months per year in ideal conditions and a captive tort has 12 months. Are you suggesting that both torts will grow at the same pace during the wild torts 6 month ideal conditions period. If yes, why are wild torts bowling ball smooth and captive bred are not? Is it purely abrasion on the wild carapace.
Yes. Keratin grows in response to the expanding bone growth beneath. The seams of the scutes are not aligned at all with the seams, or sutures of the bone plates. That give the tortoise shell much more strength. But the areolae of the scute is "attached" to the underlying bone at that point only for the scute. So as the bone growth expands, seams are created between the scutes. Keratin fills those seams as a natural part of normal growth. Depending upon the scute and its location, you will see different parts of the scute develop dramatically different seam width. Especially with the costals. The attached areolae part is towards the top of the scute, as the lower part of the scute area in the costals is mostly fontanelles and open, without bone, the first few years of growth for a tortoise. So the top seam of a costal is very narrow, but the lower seams are extremely wide. If we look at this we can see that since there is no underlying bone there yet, it is an area that will be very resistant to pyramiding in a very young tortoise. There is no bone to deform yet! But there is plenty of new keratin that will always develop, even in the widest of seams.

I am also saying that I believe a wild tortoise in time of plenty will grow just as fast as a fast growing captive. They simply spend a good deal of the year not growing at all, or very slowly. Good nutritious food is only avialable for sulcatas, as an example, perhaps 4 months or so out of the year. In his book The Crying Tortoise, Bernard Devaux cites the growth rates of young tortoises from his extensive study of wild tortoise in the Sahel. He states growth vaires widely depending upon year and climate, but an "average" would be to expect a 1 yr old to weigh 1 kg, a 2yr old 3 kg and 3 yr old 6kg. So cosidering this gorwth mainly occurs in the peak 4 months of rainy season, that is certainly on pace with a very fast grown captive grown in optimal conditions 12 months a year. Interestingly, he also talks about the very young tortoise staying mostly buried in moist soil, and often in groups. Continuing this behavior until about 6 kg at which time they will start digging burrows of their own.

So why do I believe wild tortoise will be "bowling ball smooth"? Because the same conditions they need for smooth growth - good hydration and protection from drying carapace - is also the same conditions that produce nutritious foods. So they grow only in the "right" conditions. When conditions are more drying, they are not growing. Look at areas where the expansion of agriculture and reserviors has offered tortoise access to foods in teh dryer times of years. Or tortoise in their natural range, yet kept in holding pens or yards and fed through the dryer times. There you will see pyramided tortoises. The difference is the availability of growth foods in a time of year there would normally not be any nutritious foods - which is also the dry times.
 

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Just an observation. Several years ago at the San Diego Zoo I saw some young Galaps about 12-15" size raised from their Galap herd. They were surprisingly quite pyramided. They were fed well, had plenty of hydration and sunshine. This would seem to disagree with your premises:confused:. I believe they are one of the premier Galap zoos in the world and work closely with the Conservancy.

Neither that zoo, nor any other that I've found, knows how to grow a smooth tortoise. Nor does the Conservancy. Those people are learning from us.
 

Tom

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Anyway. Can someone either prove me right or wrong please.

There is some data to demonstrate the speed of wild growth for a few temperate species, but not a whole lot for other species. I make two points about growth in the wild:
1. We really don't have any idea what is "fast" or "slow" for most species. We only have the growth rate of a few that were studied during a given time frame, with those corresponding wild conditions.
2. Wild conditions are very harsh, and most young growing tortoises can't even survive long enough to make it to maturity. Point being: Wild growth rates, whatever they are, are not necessarily what we should be striving for. Wild conditions are barely survivable in most cases, so we should expect to see slower growth rates than what we'd see in captive conditions where they are disease and predator free and have free access to fresh water and good food.

More points to ponder:
1. Are we concerned with growth rates for other pets? Anyone deliberately try to control the growth of their leopards geckos with food deprivation? Seems like this discussion comes up with tortoises solely due to carapace appearance.
2. For your above expressed assertions to be accurate, you are going to have to explain all the smooth 50-60 pound two and three year old sulcatas in the world. They aren't being fed excessive mounts of protein, and their keratin seems to do just fine at keeping up with their growth rate.

I think our efforts should be on growing our tortoises healthy. How fast they grow has never concerned me. I was taught and once believed that "slow" growth was "better" for them. I was wrong and so were the people who taught me that. The rate of growth can be on the faster side, or the slower side, for a variety of reasons, many of which we probably don't even know about, but I think the emphasis should be on health, not growth rate.
 

Anyfoot

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@Tom @Markw84 I need to read your posts and think about them before I answer. It's my daughters 16th tonight so I'm a bit preoccupied.
I just wanted to show you this redfoot. It's now 6 months old(just over) and was fed protein from 3 months old.
This tortoise has had UVB from wk 1. I soak every day(missed the odd day but never missed 2 days on the bounce) humidity in my tort house never drops below 90%. I spray them twice a day, I have good drainage in there table so I can give the enclosure a very good spray without worrying about anything getting stagnant. I actually make sure I spray each and every individual baby every time. There are no hides other than masses of moss that they sleep in under palm plants. The idea was to force them into feeling insecure and want to dig in under the moss. Some dig in and some just lay on the moss.
If it's assumed that as long as I keep my torts from drying out that they won't pyramid then why is this little guy not smooth. I can only think of 2 things. Excessive growth or they have become that tame that they don't hide away with moist moss on top of the carapace any more.
There is no heat source anywhere near these babies, so artificial drying of the carapace is just not an option.
Btw. I have no preference to grow my torts slow or fast, I just want to find out if it is possible to give them too a rich diet that it can cause pyramiding.

IMG_0831.JPG
 
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