Coconut Oil

[TexTorts]

I have a 1 year old Sulcata that I rescued from an environment living in habitat with other reptiles (adult bearded dragon) whose skin, due to to severe dehydration, was dry, flaking off and had a small puncture wound. We have given him several daily soaks for months now and saw alot of improvement in overall hydration and health. He is now a strong and healthy survivor. BUT-- something was missing. He still had a very "old man" appearance due to rough start.
After much research on our own and reading on the forum- we purchased organic, extra virgin cold pressed coconut oil. Once a week, I put approximately 1/2 teaspoon in a warm, extra soak at night before he "cubbies up" for the night. The marked improvement in his overall appearance and his skin, especially on his head, is amazing. His skin looks and feels so much more supple (as far as tortoises can). I do this at night, when the UV lights will be going off so that he has time to absorb without the possibility of harm to him having oil on under lights/heat. I would recommend this if these are your issues. And, additionally- He is quite the handsome fellow now!

On a side note- I agree with the above statement! We own a massage therapy studio- Our 6 Sulcatas absolutely LOVE massage! Never underestimate the power of Touch!

 

[TexTorts]

Napebbles. Almost 10 months of applications.
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Nibbles. Almost a year of applications.
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Very Handsome !!

 

[glitch4200]

Thank you all for a year of conversation about the debatable topic of coconut oil.. We have officially past 1 year of consistent applications of coconut oil. Applied up to 4x a week for the last year straight minus a few weeks of 'drying time'. I would like to thank everyone who has believed in me through out this adventure. I have some really really exciting news. And a very big update coming soon outlining the last year of put together information on coconut oil applications with my tortoises.

 

[AnimalLady]

You know, I made a comment on a FB page about me applying coconut oil to my torts shell. I was attacked and some of them even said I was going to cause SHELL ROT! Looking at this thread, I think noooooot! I will continue to apply the coconut oil because I think it is beneficial for his dried out shell!

 

[glitch4200]

You know, I made a comment on a FB page about me applying coconut oil to my torts shell. I was attacked and some of them even said I was going to cause SHELL ROT! Looking at this thread, I think noooooot! I will continue to apply the coconut oil because I think it is beneficial for his dried out shell!

Please join my group on Facebook. My group name is called Tortoise Love. As of today I have been kicked and banned from 10 tortoise groups on Facebook.

All these groups have over 1.5k members and I was kicked and banned because of my explanation of coconut oil and it's use in tortoises. The admins of every group I was banned from could not handle the thought of new ideas being talked about in their groups. I fought and fought and fought day after day after day. Listening to the the bull crap excusespeople came up with to tell m coconutting my tortoises are going to cause irreversible harm. But when I pressed the to give me the science behind your opinions of this so called harm. They said I was wrong, provided no science or evidence that they were right and then kicked me out of the group in frustration because I would rape their walls with science from academic sources on the issue, showing that they were not correct.

This became worse when these admins who are on control of such groups advocates the use of dry habitats with no humidity. Very little soaking. And crap husbandry. Those groups who were the farthest from raising healthiest tortoises kicked me the fastest. Exp when I mentioned how all tortoises need humidity and microclimate. Expecially under artificial lighting, I have lost count how many group admins who broadcast a crap care sheet for their tortoise peeps in majority of species.. And God forbid you question them....

When you question these admins in theses Facebook groups, the second it becomes a debate you get kicked and banned. Either conform or goodbye.

Tortoise Keepers, Tortoise Buddies and my group Tortoise Love are the only ones I can handle anymore. I was apart of 20 plus groups at one point. And was active in majority of them. Within a year I was banned from half of them. The biggest ones too. A few I can be sure it was because I was rude as hell at the blatant incorrect husbandry being shoved down people's throats. I have a few in mind I won't name. TpG *cough*. That I hate with a fiery passion. Because not one person can say one thing that is not what the admin feels is correct. Or they kick and ban you.. If you look at the "rules" it's 2 pages long.. This is how and why tortoises keepers are so damn confused! The spread of incorrect misinformation that is unscientificly justified is rampant and when someone who might have some knowledge in the area try to defend their point. They get silenced. I have been silenced so many times from deleted posts, to getting kicked and banned, to having Peta, and every animal organization threatened to be called on me from doing 'animal experimentation'. The list is pretty big.

You brought up a very sensitive subject here for me. I loathe the fact these groups have so much pull. And the torts are suffering. Big time. And it's so simple. Why can't you understand that a basking lamp dehydrates the environment and that you need the extra moisture to counteract the basking lamp or else your tortoise will sustain periods of extreme dehydrated conditions never naturally being exposed to in the wild.

 

[Alaskamike]

You have more patience with egotistical ignorance than I my friend.

Disagree , debate , even pontificate if it trips your trigger - but back up what you say with science or experience , preferably both.

Here on TF we often have disagreements , but it is most often explained with the whys. People take the time and effort to back up their advice with appropriate justification.

I don't care for Facebook , or the groups there. But that's just me.

Looking forward for more info from you , this journey with EVCO has been most interesting.

 

[AnimalLady]

Please join my group on Facebook. My group name is called Tortoise Love. As of today I have been kicked and banned from 10 tortoise groups on Facebook.

All these groups have over 1.5k members and I was kicked and banned because of my explanation of coconut oil and it's use in tortoises. The admins of every group I was banned from could not handle the thought of new ideas being talked about in their groups. I fought and fought and fought day after day after day. Listening to the the bull crap excusespeople came up with to tell m coconutting my tortoises are going to cause irreversible harm. But when I pressed the to give me the science behind your opinions of this so called harm. They said I was wrong, provided no science or evidence that they were right and then kicked me out of the group in frustration because I would rape their walls with science from academic sources on the issue, showing that they were not correct.

This became worse when these admins who are on control of such groups advocates the use of dry habitats with no humidity. Very little soaking. And crap husbandry. Those groups who were the farthest from raising healthiest tortoises kicked me the fastest. Exp when I mentioned how all tortoises need humidity and microclimate. Expecially under artificial lighting, I have lost count how many group admins who broadcast a crap care sheet for their tortoise peeps in majority of species.. And God forbid you question them....

When you question these admins in theses Facebook groups, the second it becomes a debate you get kicked and banned. Either conform or goodbye.

Tortoise Keepers, Tortoise Buddies and my group Tortoise Love are the only ones I can handle anymore. I was apart of 20 plus groups at one point. And was active in majority of them. Within a year I was banned from half of them. The biggest ones too. A few I can be sure it was because I was rude as hell at the blatant incorrect husbandry being shoved down people's throats. I have a few in mind I won't name. TpG *cough*. That I hate with a fiery passion. Because not one person can say one thing that is not what the admin feels is correct. Or they kick and ban you.. If you look at the "rules" it's 2 pages long.. This is how and why tortoises keepers are so damn confused! The spread of incorrect misinformation that is unscientificly justified is rampant and when someone who might have some knowledge in the area try to defend their point. They get silenced. I have been silenced so many times from deleted posts, to getting kicked and banned, to having Peta, and every animal organization threatened to be called on me from doing 'animal experimentation'. The list is pretty big.

You brought up a very sensitive subject here for me. I loathe the fact these groups have so much pull. And the torts are suffering. Big time. And it's so simple. Why can't you understand that a basking lamp dehydrates the environment and that you need the extra moisture to counteract the basking lamp or else your tortoise will sustain periods of extreme dehydrated conditions never naturally being exposed to in the wild.

I see, very sensitive! It's not really in my nature to argue, so when I got btched at for using it I just didn't respond, it probably would have been an entire group against me. I also haven't been a tort mom for long, and I don't carry the information and proof you carry so my argument wouldn't have even been valid. I am a strong believer in coconut oil for many things, I really love the stuff.
Anywho, I'll go join your FB group now

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

For my own, personal reasons, I don't participate on The Facebook. The TortoiseForum and a social driving group are the extant of my online social interaction. I'm happy that way. That and I don't live in town but instead live out in the "boonies" as has been said. I'm guessing it's all somehow related. And I actually like social interaction.

 

[glitch4200]

*Pic Update on Nibbles* 1 year and 1 month. Nibbles has recieved up to 4x applications a week consistently in this time frame minus a couple times of allowing the oil to fully dry out. His diet consists store bought greens. And assortment of dried flowers,grasses and weeds as a topper. Calcium topping about 2x a week. Temps 85f ambient 95f basking. Cool zone (in hides) 75f. Humidity levels: relative habitat level about 30% and 40% though I try to keep it at 60% sustained but it is exceedingly hard to do so because of the unfiltered basking lamps.. The humid hide levels close to 75% humidity although can be as low as 40% when the habitat dries out.

 

[AnimalLady]

Do you put the oil ONLY on the shell? In the last pic his head looks a bit shiny?

 

[glitch4200]

*11.5 months NaPebble Update*
She has almost reached a year of applications as well. She has had explosive growth in the year I have had her. Gaining over 5.2 Oz in weight and a tad over in inch in length in just a year. You can see how the alpha keratin is super healthy and this healthy matrix has allowed the shell to expand with the bone with little restriction. Leading to overall smooth growth. I think a leading problem with fast growth in tortoises is the shell is not mechanically able to handle the expansion of the bone unless the shell structure is super hydrated and favored for quick expansion.
She follows same eating regiment and both nibble and napebbles gets soaked between 2x and 6x a week.

Essentially my theory of the coconut oil acting as a booster for this matrix, can be seen in observation with her growth. As the healthy alpha keratin grows it Wil differentiate into healthy beta keratin but that all rely on a healthy alpha keratin matrix. If the matrix is denurtered by unfiltered lamps which I have pointed out, the stress gene in the protein box as they call it will make the scute proliferate abnormally to protect that alpha keratin matrix. This enhances that mechanical pressure putting lots of strain on the bone.

 

[glitch4200]

Do you put the oil ONLY on the shell? In the last pic his head looks a bit shiny?

Shell and skin. I have found since applying to the skin, it has benefited as much as the shell in my. Opinion. The skin is made of the same thing as the shell. But different layering. Alpha keratin is on top of the basal layer (blood) and it is prone to denurtering from the unfiltered basking lamps if not more so then the scutes. The skin doesn't have much beta keratin to guard against those effects like the shell does. The shell is very good at protecting that alpha keratin that covers the entire tortoise.

 

[AnimalLady]

Shell and skin. I have found since applying to the skin, it has benefited as much as the shell in my. Opinion. The skin is made of the same thing as the shell. But different layering. Alpha keratin is on top of the basal layer (blood) and it is prone to denurtering from the unfiltered basking lamps if not more so then the scutes. The skin doesn't have much beta keratin to guard against those effects like the shell does. The shell is very good at protecting that alpha keratin that covers the entire tortoise.

Do you still soak? Very interesting.

 

[glitch4200]

Do you still soak? Very interesting.

Oh hell ya. I have been exceedingly busy with life but I try to soak them every single day for as long as they want. Some days it's 5 seconds and some days it 2 plus hours of soak time... It is up to them. They choose. They are pretty good about it too. I don't particularly feel they are stressed in the least bit. When I put them in and they jump right out I'll give it one more go before I put them back to chill for the day. N

 

[Alaskamike]

Good photos. I have been using the EVCO since following this thread just not as often. Since my torts are outside and w/o lamps. But I do see the efficacy in shell protection from desiccation. We are coming into our dry season here in South Florida so I will step up use.

It is still seen in the general community here as either unnatural , unnecessary, or even harmful. But in your thread here I believe all these issues have been well answered.

When I see tortoises with very dried out caprice and open top tables I frequently suggest both closed chambers and EVCO. But I include the caveat that this is still debatable and refer them to this thread to make up their own mind.
Anything even the slightest bit new or different than what " experts" do or suggest often is marginalized until / unless it becomes standard practice. But you've seen this here and in other groups where you've tried to explain EVCO.

This is one of my favorite threads ; intelligent, thorough, and detailed. Bravo.

 

[Prairie Mom]

I agree with the positive comments made about this thread. I couldn't comment about how coconut oil effects heat retention etc, because I simply have no knowledge or experience with this, and think it is appropriately discussed in the debatable category. But this thread has convinced me that coconut oil can be an effective tool in tortoise husbandry. I finally started to use it toward the end of this summer. I use it much more lightly than the photos you display, but now believe it is necessary for me as the tortoise and I battle the constant drying winds in my climate and it even helps me to remove small hard water stains that develop from time to time. I'm glad its use was brought to my attention here.

 

[Big Charlie]

*11.5 months NaPebble Update*
She has almost reached a year of applications as well. She has had explosive growth in the year I have had her. Gaining over 5.2 Oz in weight and a tad over in inch in length in just a year. You can see how the alpha keratin is super healthy and this healthy matrix has allowed the shell to expand with the bone with little restriction. Leading to overall smooth growth. I think a leading problem with fast growth in tortoises is the shell is not mechanically able to handle the expansion of the bone unless the shell structure is super hydrated and favored for quick expansion.
She follows same eating regiment and both nibble and napebbles gets soaked between 2x and 6x a week.

Essentially my theory of the coconut oil acting as a booster for this matrix, can be seen in observation with her growth. As the healthy alpha keratin grows it Wil differentiate into healthy beta keratin but that all rely on a healthy alpha keratin matrix. If the matrix is denurtered by unfiltered lamps which I have pointed out, the stress gene in the protein box as they call it will make the scute proliferate abnormally to protect that alpha keratin matrix. This enhances that mechanical pressure putting lots of strain on the bone. View attachment 156141
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I never thought of it until you mentioned the quick expansion. Like pyramiding is similar to stretch marks in humans - growing faster inside than the outside can keep up with.

 

[glitch4200]

I never thought of it until you mentioned the quick expansion. Like pyramiding is similar to stretch marks in humans - growing faster inside than the outside can keep up with.

Exactly. Of course their are many variables that promote or impede pyramiding. But I think proper scute hydration highly helps in preventing pyramiding. A factor commonly overlooked when people talk about pyramiding and torts. Everyone is so focused on diet and uvb absorption they are missing the last crucial piece to the puzzle.. Alpha and beta keratin hydration and care. If you think about it. The entire tortoise is made strictly from these proteins minus bone and organs. Like our skin this keratin can act as an expander or a restricter. Like stretch marks. Except Kerstin doesn't stretch it bunches up and creates mechanicals stresses. At least that is my thought on it.

 

[glitch4200]

One thing I have noticed in the last year. Is the oil seems to be decomposing faster on the keratin then when I first started like before the oil would last about 4 days of noticeable application. Now it seems after 2 days it's completely gone. Like today I coconutted my female napebbles and by the end of the day majority of it seemed to be gone. Still obviously their but much of it has disappeared. The pic of her shows how she isn't that shiny. I applied earlier that day..
Vs..
Nibbles I applied early that day and he was still pretty coconutted up by night time.

I am starting to think since napebbles is growing rapidly that her shell is interacting with the oil more as it expands? Or maybe the environment of the shell like it's pH, has changed and is effecting the way the oil decomposes? But I have been noticing it more and more as time has gone on.

Another thing I have noticed. Applying to the skin and legs has dramatically increased color in the scutes, which use to be a more dull color with dry spots along the legs are gone now. the nails on the legs which use to be cracked and dry looking are no longer cracked and seem very hydrated now more pliable I guess you could say?

Just some things I have noticed.

 

[glitch4200]

Taken from a research article in the journal of cosmetic science.

The article is called : Effect of mineral oil, sunflower oil, and coconut oil on
prevention of hair damage
AARTI S. RELE and R. B. MOHILE, Research and Development
Department, Nature Care Division, Marico Industries Ltd.,
MumbaL India.
Accepted for publication April 29, 2002,

Their is a reason coconut oil is very good at interacting with the alpha and beta Kerstin proteins that make up a tortoises shell ans skin.

Let me quote my source.
First understand our hair is made of alpha Kerstin. The shell is made out of both alpha and beta keratin. Their is a reason for coconut oil ability to penetrate hair which is made out of the similar protein and follows a very similar interaction with said protein.

"This difference in results could arise from the composition of each of these oils. Coconut oil, being a
triglyceride of lauric acid (principal fatty acid), has a high affinity for hair proteins and, because of its low
molecular weight and straight linear chain, is able to penetrate inside the hair shaft. Mineral oil, being a
hydrocarbon, has no affinity for proteins and therefore is not able to penetrate and yield better results. In
the case of sunflower oil, although it is a triglyceride of linoleic acid, because of its bulky structure due to
the presence of double bonds, it does not penetrate the fiber, consequently resulting in no favorable impact
on protein loss."

The above description offers insight into coconut oils ability to be the best at protein interaction with the proteins we are dealing with in our tortoises. No other oil is effective at interacting then this oil. Thus, giving this oil an edge over almost every other oil in my opinion and according to what I have read . Mineral oil doesn't work like coconut oil, most natural oils are double bonded and have a hard time interacting with certain proteins like Kerstin, luckily coconut oil is not one of them.