Closed "Chambers"

terryo

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(Today 01:51 PM)maggie3fan Wrote:
I guess it means nothing that hatchlings are my specialty or that I raise them in many different types of enclosures.


Don't feel bad Maggie...he left me out too, and I've been bashed around for having this type of enclosure for years. But, I don't care....I'm just glad that everyone finally saw the light! Maybe I should have posted some pictures of Pio and Solo for effect too :D:D
 

Yvonne G

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maggie3fan said:
k15t09.jpg

This is just the cutest picture ever. Did he do that himself or did you pose him?
 

Tom

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Good lord! I can't remember every person every time. I love you all, and really appreciate all the feed back on this topic. Maggie and TerryO, you are both fine tortoise keepers who produce great results. I've said so publicly many times. And Yvonne is right, I have never seen those enclosure pics Maggie. TerryO, you should have been on that list because Pio is one of my favorite examples of tortoise perfection AND I have seen your enclosure pics.

Kristina, you make some really good points about enclosure size.
Balboa, two very good points. I've had some close calls with heat lamps and CHE's in the past, and sometimes I forget to emphasize using extreme caution with our enclosures.

Jeff, I typed up a response to your question yesterday, but it seems to have not posted for some reason. Two things: 1. In my opinion, if your torts get sun for an hour twice a week, that is enough. More is better, but two hours is enough for D3 synthesis in my experience. Especially if you will be able to do this all winter long too. Nowadays, I usually switch to MVBs in the winter, just to be safe. Sometimes I go a stretch of two weeks with no sun in the winter. Some keepers (notably Kristina, who I respect very much as a keeper) give their torts lots of sun all summer, but due to climate have to keep them indoors for several months out of every year. Kristina uses no UV lamps ever, and has very healthy torts. I think you'd be fine with a regular 50 watt incandescent flood. The other option would be to make the enclosure taller and bigger, so the 100 watt MVB will work. Thing 2: How are you measuring humidity in your hides? Even with my room humidity hovering around 50%, my humid hides are always in the high 90s percentage-wise. It seems like either your hides are too open somehow, to dry inside to begin with, or your measuring device is off. I've had all three of the above at times.
 

JeffG

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I keep a hydrometer? in the hide. The humidity is higher at times, but is usually 65-80% in the morning when I check. You have to remember, the ambient humidity here in the Arizona desert is often in single digits.

I will work to get the humidity up, but it won't be easy. I deliberately chose species that come from dry areas because of the climate I live in. I just didn't realize at the time that hatchlings/babies need such high humidity. I do soak them EVERY day for 30-45 minutes. I also spray them a lot. I get them outside as much as possible, so If I can get their humidity up, I think things will be as good as possible.

These little guys are a royal pain in the butt, and I love every minute of caring for them. They are definitely more work than the lizards I have been keeping for years though!
 

jackmac

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Tom,
Curious if you had any problems dealing with poor air circulation since it was an enclosed chamber. Also do you have vent holes by the side of the enclosure, can't really see from the pics. Thank you.
Jack
 

Tom

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JeffG said:
These little guys are a royal pain in the butt, and I love every minute of caring for them. They are definitely more work than the lizards I have been keeping for years though!

Hahahaha! That's because you picked the best/easiest species of lizard in the world to work with!

Show us a pic of your humid hide. Maybe we can come up with some tips that would help you and others.

jackmac said:
Tom,
Curious if you had any problems dealing with poor air circulation since it was an enclosed chamber. Also do you have vent holes by the side of the enclosure, can't really see from the pics. Thank you.
Jack

None of them are "airtight", but I have no intentional "vent" holes. I find that vents just let my warm humid air out. I have never had any problems with mold or of fungus of any sort. That might be because it is SOOOOO dry here. Single digit humidity most of the year. Maybe in other areas, some vent holes would be necessary. I don't think that if I lived in Southern FL, I would think enclosures of this type were so important or necessary. But here in the CA desert or in AZ or in most heated and air conditioned homes in most of the country, I think this type of enclosure is the best way to go. I just wish it were easier for people to just go out and buy what they need. As it stands now, each of these needs to be "hand-crafted" to a degree.
 

Kristina

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(Thanks for the compliment, Tom!)

Tom is right, I use no UV lighting at all. My personal opinion on UV bulbs is that the coil bulbs are dangerous, the tube bulbs are worthless junk designed to get you to spend your money, and the MVBs do work well but are unnecessary as long as your tortoise gets some outside time, and a PROPER DIET. Diet is a BIG part of going UV-less, one that is often over looked.

For example, I got my little Greek 8/14/10. She could sit on a quarter and weighed 8 grams, and was 5 weeks old.

KristinasPictures3877.jpg


She lived the entire first 9 months of her life inside, no sunlight, and no artifical UV.

This picture was taken in early spring, before they went outside to live for the summer.

KristinasPictures413847.jpg


She at that time weighed close to 60 grams. Hard as a rock, growing, and healthy. I attribute her health to having a healthy, balanced diet.

As far as the question of air flow in closed chambers, I mentioned earlier myself that this has not been a problem for me either. I have no issues with mold, fungus, shell rot, respiratory issues, etc. None of mine are "air-tight" either, but I don't have vents. Any deliberate vent holes allow the humidity to evaporate. All of my enclosures are also opened at least once a day for feeding/spraying. That does allow for some air exchange.
 

kbaker

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Tom said:
jackmac said:
Tom,
Curious if you had any problems dealing with poor air circulation since it was an enclosed chamber. Also do you have vent holes by the side of the enclosure, can't really see from the pics. Thank you.
Jack

None of them are "airtight", but I have no intentional "vent" holes. I find that vents just let my warm humid air out. I have never had any problems with mold or of fungus of any sort. That might be because it is SOOOOO dry here. Single digit humidity most of the year. Maybe in other areas, some vent holes would be necessary. I don't think that if I lived in Southern FL, I would think enclosures of this type were so important or necessary. But here in the CA desert or in AZ or in most heated and air conditioned homes in most of the country, I think this type of enclosure is the best way to go. I just wish it were easier for people to just go out and buy what they need. As it stands now, each of these needs to be "hand-crafted" to a degree.

I agree with Tom...it all depends on the humidity of where you are at. You will always need to adjust as you go to 'dial in' your set up and never assume you are good when there are changing variables.

I don't think an actual air tight cage is good. I would think it would be uncomfortable for the tortoise when opening and closing the cage, too.

"dealing with poor air circulation"
Poor air circulation is really too much air flow. You want to avoid moving air. If you find the desire to vent your cage, I would suggest putting a small vent(s) torwards the bottom of the cage (heat rises and that air movement is what takes the moister out of the cage). Like Kristina said...just opening and closing the cage daily should be enough.

I recently put these four cages together. I never liked using rubbermaid-like containers, but I found these containers at Home Depot for $10 a piece. One concern is insulation and so far these are not doing too bad at holding heat in (We will see when winter gets here). I had the ceramic light fixtures and spent $1.14 each for the cords. The lids come off easy, they stack to save space (even with the cords and lights) and the best part is the door opens well and you have plenty of room to reach in, move turtle/tortoises in & out, clean, move the water/food bowls in & out...they have worked out great. The bedding is deep enough so the tappered front does not affect floor space. I did not put in any venting and it holds humidity really well.


Cages110904.jpg



OK - one complaint. Why can't they use stickers that come off???
 

Sky2Mina

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@kbaker - how exactly do you use these as enclosures? Share to show their 'insides'? :D

Interesting thread!
 

jackmac

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Hey Tom,
I just pulled the trigger! Getting a custom torotise enclosure made, it will be ready in a week. I was debating at first whether to get a fish tank or a waterland tub, but after reading your post, the answer is clear.
Jack
 

Tom

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jackmac said:
Hey Tom,
I just pulled the trigger! Getting a custom torotise enclosure made, it will be ready in a week. I was debating at first whether to get a fish tank or a waterland tub, but after reading your post, the answer is clear.
Jack

Show us pics once you get it. Due to the potential difficulty in designing and building this type of enclosure, we could all use some more examples and inspiration.

I saw one at the reptile show this weekend that was inspiring. I failed to get a pic though...
 

kbaker

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Sky2Mina said:
@kbaker - how exactly do you use these as enclosures? Share to show their 'insides'? :D

Interesting thread!

I am not sure what you are really asking here. You use them like any other cage...set up with correct temps, add bedding, add water and add turtle/tortoise.:p

Right now I have a female Ornate box turtle quaritined in one. My redfoots are in my Sulcata hatchling cage so I will be putting the Sulcata hatchlings in them when they start hatching again. I have my ornate box turtle hatchlings in a five gallon now, but once they start eating more regularly, I will move them into one of them.
 

Yvonne G

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I think she meant can we see inside one to see how they look?
 

dmarcus

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I would like to see what they look like inside also, the photo's make them look small and I assume they are not.
 

blafiriravt

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Wow, Tom. Really cool enclosure. I am a super noob lol. But one thing I have picked up in the past couple of days, is different species have way different requirements. The issue is, as you stated, where people live. Here in Vermont, humidity is actually a huge pain the butt for me, especially trying to incorporate an outside enclosure. It is not uncommon for me to see days with 50 percent or greater. I have lived on TFO for the past two and half days, and it's hard to find two different people living in two different locations with the same breed of tort who would recommend a really good baseline substrate or enclosure setup. For instance, i was looking up substrates for Golden Greeks yesterday. One person highly recommend Aspen bedding, SWORE by it, and another would "highly suggest" a 25/75 top soil/cypress mix. Here in VT, that soil/cypress mix would create tortoise soup in a week. Down south,and out west, it works really well, because it's warmer and dryer, and controlling humidity is a bit easier using those substrates. To make a long story short, I thank you for posting threads like these, because it REALLY helps the super noobs such as myself. Being able to take a peek at some home made enclosures specifically made for the type of environment they are living in, is insanely helpful to me. Sorry for the blabbing. :p
 

Sky2Mina

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@Kbaker - Yes, It's like Yvonne and Dalano said - I just wonder how you put lights or other equipment and also that you're not able to "look inside" (because they're closed, no glass/plexiglass wall) so I'm not quite sure how it works with these.
 

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