CBW-CITES Question

[Frogman11]

Do you need a CBW permit to trade animals across state lines? I have some rare iguanas that I'm thinking about trading for some Radiated tortoises. I have heard that you don't need permits for trading. If so where can I find this info in writing? I don't really want to go by he said she said. I would like to see it with my own eyes.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Garrett

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

It's a great first question!

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Garrett, and welcome to the Forum!

I know that for selling you need a permit for the Radiata, but I don't know about trading. Let's ask @deadheadvet or @Will . They should be able to answer your question.

 

[zovick]

Unfortunately, BOTH parties WOULD need CBW Permits for such a trade because it involves two different species. The only time a CBW Permit is not required for trades of endangered species across state lines would be if the trade involved the same species of animals. IE, 10 baby Radiateds traded for an adult female Radiated or a male Radiated being traded for a female Radiated. I have emails from USFWS which state exactly this. If you want to see one for yourself, send me an email and I can forward one to you: [email protected]

Bill Z

 

[zovick]

One further note: if the lizards were also an endangered species, both parties would need to have BOTH of the species involved in the trade (the Radiated Tortoises AND the lizards) listed on their respective CBW Permits for a legal transaction to occur.

Bill Z

 

[deadheadvet]

As Bill previously mentioned, you can not trade different species because each different species has value, hence. Permit would be required. If the Rads were given as a "gift" no permit would be needed. It has to do with commerce. If there is financial value within the trade/sale, Permits by both parties would be required.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Another no-permit-required scenario is if some one moves from one state to another. If you own lizards and you have no permit, and move to another state then you can do so, no commerce is the key, and yet you/lizards are in a new state. Say you know someone moving to the state of a buyer, you sell to them before they move, no intrAstate commerce, they move, then sell the animals, still no intrAstate commerce. To use this method and incorporate a trade would take much trust and oversight.

I suppose it could be argued this is against the 'spirit of the law', but so is the slow or no existent review and issuance of permits. That seems to be a game of USFWS right now.

 

[KevinGG]

You can also ship over state lines if the animals are pre-CITES. Meaning the animals are older than their CITES implementation. Guessing this isn't the case for you though.

 

[zovick]

For Radiated Tortoises, pre-Act animals which would not be not covered by the USFWS rules would have to have been in the US prior to 1973. There are not that many of them around today which are not in zoos, so the likelihood that the tortoises Garret mentioned are pre-Act is not great. It is not impossible, just not very likely. Also I believe that it would be quite difficult for most private owners to definitively prove to USFWS that their tortoise was imported prior to 1973. I know I would have a great deal of difficulty locating/obtaining the needed proof for the ones I bought in the 1960's and early 1970's especially since I did not import them personally. This difficulty would be compounded by the fact that the importers who sold them to me are all deceased.

 

[Toons1978]

Here is a scenario & question, lets say you are the resident of a state where someone breeds tortoises requiring a CBW for interstate sale, but due to military obligation, you live outside of that state. You maintain residency, keep your state license, and maybe own a house or two but you now live a few states away or further. Can a tortoise be purchased online then shipped to your current location without a permit or must you fly back to the state, buy it, then take it with you back to wherever Uncle Sam has put you?

 

[deadheadvet]

Tortoise would need to be shipped to residence on the license. If within the same state, no permit required, once you ship across state lines both parties must have permit.

 

[Tom]

Here is a scenario & question, lets say you are the resident of a state where someone breeds tortoises requiring a CBW for interstate sale, but due to military obligation, you live outside of that state. You maintain residency, keep your state license, and maybe own a house or two but you now live a few states away or further. Can a tortoise be purchased online then shipped to your current location without a permit or must you fly back to the state, buy it, then take it with you back to wherever Uncle Sam has put you?

This should in no way be considered legal advice, but I'll take a stab at this one based on what I know of these laws and their implementation:

If you buy a CB baby radiata in your home state where you are a permanent resident, own a home and have a driver's license, and then you drive your own tortoise across state lines to the place where you are temporarily stationed, you would be in compliance with the law. There is no inter-state commerce in this scenario. The money changed hands in your own state where you "live" and where the tortoise was bred. No money changed hands when the tortoise crossed state lines. You legally owned it in your "home" state, and that being the case, you can drive your own tortoise anywhere in the country you want. You just could not sell it to any one outside your home state unless you and the buyer both had a CBW.

To use myself as a similar example: I work in the movie business. I could buy a radiata here in CA and then the very next day, I could drive to Louisiana to do a 6 month long feature, and it would be completely legal to bring my new tortoise. I could even give the tortoise away, or leave it with someone in Louisiana on a "breeding Loan" with no CBW if I wanted to. I just could not sell the tortoise or trade it for any kind of compensation while out of my home state. I could sell it to another Californian once I got back home though.

Here is a question for the resident experts: It is legal to sell a radiata or Galop in its home state, right? So could I drive to AZ, for example, buy a tortoise and then legally drive it home myself? If the money changes hands in the home state am I legal, or do I have to be a legal resident of the state of purchase?

 

[tglazie]

Here's another question. What if I sell a radiated to someone who was a resident of my home state, but we are both currently vacationing in another state? Also, is it illegal to sell a tortoise within the confines a foreign embassy, even if you are selling to someone who shares residence in your state? I mean, that is technically foreign soil, is it not? These laws are so confusing. I wonder what precendence has been set regarding these laws, what weird and interesting twists authorities have made to enforce them.

T.G.

 

[tglazie]

Also, can you engage the transaction on an airplane? Let's say I'm selling to a fellow passenger who shares residency in my state. Let's say we both live in Texas, but we are flying to New Mexico. Is it legal to sell the tortoise on the flight? Would it be illegal if the plane crossed a state line? Would we have to time it according to GPS to make it legal?

T.G.

 

[tglazie]

Also, I'd imagine it would be illegal to trade eggs across state lines. But what if I bred the tortoise and she was gravid (which could be legally proven by x-ray), but then I took her over state lines and she laid the eggs in another state. Would those tortoises still be registered in the state in which they were laid, or the state in which they were fertilized? Do the tortoises become registered to the state upon hatching?

T.G.

 

[Toons1978]

DHV, it seems best time to buy would be while I was on leave then hand carry a little fella back with me. Tom, thank you for that reply (and all of your humidity experimenting). T.G., from your list of "what ifs" I see there is much ambiguity in the law. So what needs to be defined is whether the law applies to geographical borders(state lines) or individuals in relation to those borders(residency vs current home) or all of the above in some odd combination. Do any of you know or have a link to the actual USC that covers this portion of the ESA so that I could read it for myself?

 

[zovick]

To Answer Tom's Questions:

"Here is a question for the resident experts: It is legal to sell a radiata or Galop in its home state, right? So could I drive to AZ, for example, buy a tortoise and then legally drive it home myself? If the money changes hands in the home state am I legal, or do I have to be a legal resident of the state of purchase?"

Yes, it is legal to sell the tortoise in its (the owner's) home state, but ONLY to another legal resident of the same state. A person driving into the state to buy it and take it to his legal home in another state is a direct violation of the law. BOTH parties need CBW Permits if they are NOT legal residents of the same state. Hence if you drive to AZ to buy a Radiated from a CBW permitted owner and then go back to CA with it, you are breaking the law unless you have a CBW Permit. This type of activity would be picked up by USFWS when the original owner of the tortoise had to file his CBW Annual Report the following year.

For those unfamiliar with the process, CBW Permit holders must file an inventory report with USFWS each year which states the exact number and sex breakdown of tortoises he or she had on December 31st of the prior year, The Annual Report then documents the disposition of every tortoise which the permit holder hatched, bought, sold, loaned out, received on loan, or died in the preceding calendar year. By looking at the Inventory numbers from December of the prior year and the current year, and Annual Report from the current year, USFWS can tell how many tortoises you should still have from one year to the next. Additionally, the CBW Permit number of each and every recipient must be provided. If the recipient lives in the same state as the permit holder, and has no CBW, a copy of their driver's license is generally used to document the transaction as in-state sale.

Here is a brief example. December 31 of 2015 I have 20 total Radiated Tortoises which are listed as 5.6.9
During 2016, I hatch 20 babies and sell an adult pair. On December 31 of 2016, I would then report that I have 38 total tortoises which are listed as 4.5.29

5.6.9 in 2015 minus the 1.1 pair sold in 2016 = 4.5.9 then adding the 20 babies 4.5.9 + 0.0.20 = 4.5.29

USFWS adds and subtracts all of your transactions to the totals reported from one year to the next to see if you end up with the correct number at the end. If not, you will get a nasty letter requesting an explanation. I know this because one year, I left out one transaction when copying over my Annual Report, so ended up with numbers which did not jive. It took me days to figure out what was missing and file an amended report.

 

[zovick]

DHV, it seems best time to buy would be while I was on leave then hand carry a little fella back with me. Tom, thank you for that reply (and all of your humidity experimenting). T.G., from your list of "what ifs" I see there is much ambiguity in the law. So what needs to be defined is whether the law applies to geographical borders(state lines) or individuals in relation to those borders(residency vs current home) or all of the above in some odd combination. Do any of you know or have a link to the actual USC that covers this portion of the ESA so that I could read it for myself?

In the case of you going to buy the tortoise and bringing it back to your duty station, as long as you have a driver's license from the same state as the owner the tortoise, you are probably good. Just give a copy of your license to him so he can document that you and he live in the same state. All that would show up on his Annual Report would be that he sold it to another resident of his home state.

The law applies to geographical borders and the legal residencies of the buyer and the seller.

If you really want an answer to the more ethereal and theoretical questions, you can always call USFWS and ask for an interpretation.

Bill Z

 

[Tom]

DHV, it seems best time to buy would be while I was on leave then hand carry a little fella back with me.

No airline will let you hand carry any reptile on a flight. I'm pretty sure the military won't allow it either, but I'd be happy to be wrong about that.

 

[Tom]

To Answer Tom's Questions:

"Here is a question for the resident experts: It is legal to sell a radiata or Galop in its home state, right? So could I drive to AZ, for example, buy a tortoise and then legally drive it home myself? If the money changes hands in the home state am I legal, or do I have to be a legal resident of the state of purchase?"

Yes, it is legal to sell the tortoise in its (the owner's) home state, but ONLY to another legal resident of the same state. A person driving into the state to buy it and take it to his legal home in another state is a direct violation of the law. BOTH parties need CBW Permits if they are NOT legal residents of the same state. Hence if you drive to AZ to buy a Radiated from a CBW permitted owner and then go back to CA with it, you are breaking the law unless you have a CBW Permit. This type of activity would be picked up by USFWS when the original owner of the tortoise had to file his CBW Annual Report the following year.

For those unfamiliar with the process, CBW Permit holders must file an inventory report with USFWS each year which states the exact number and sex breakdown of tortoises he or she had on December 31st of the prior year, The Annual Report then documents the disposition of every tortoise which the permit holder hatched, bought, sold, loaned out, received on loan, or died in the preceding calendar year. By looking at the Inventory numbers from December of the prior year and the current year, and Annual Report from the current year, USFWS can tell how many tortoises you should still have from one year to the next. Additionally, the CBW Permit number of each and every recipient must be provided. If the recipient lives in the same state as the permit holder, and has no CBW, a copy of their driver's license is generally used to document the transaction as in-state sale.

Here is a brief example. December 31 of 2015 I have 20 total Radiated Tortoises which are listed as 5.6.9
During 2016, I hatch 20 babies and sell an adult pair. On December 31 of 2016, I would then report that I have 38 total tortoises which are listed as 4.5.29

5.6.9 in 2015 minus the 1.1 pair sold in 2016 = 4.5.9 then adding the 20 babies 4.5.9 + 0.0.20 = 4.5.29

USFWS adds and subtracts all of your transactions to the totals reported from one year to the next to see if you end up with the correct number at the end. If not, you will get a nasty letter requesting an explanation. I know this because one year, I left out one transaction when copying over my Annual Report, so ended up with numbers which did not jive. It took me days to figure out what was missing and file an amended report.

Duly noted, and a tremendous thank you for the experience based insight.