Can the shell get softer over a 48 hour period?

[Jenni]

Hello all! Brand spanking new to this community. I'm excited to be part of it and a first time tortoise mommy! I have a leopard tortoise who I brought home this past Monday. They tell me he's between 6-12 months old. Yesterday, 48 hours later, I noticed his the very top of his shell is hard, the sides are pliable and underneath is soft. I can't recall it being that soft in the Chicago Reptile House where I got him but maybe I just wasn't paying attention? Could it be my imagination?

Since some may ask, here's what I can tell you about his "home". He has an Exo Terra Sun-Glo Basking Spot Lamp that keeps half the enclosure at 92-95 degrees, the other side is about 80-82ish. He also has a separate lamp which has a Zoo Med ReptiSun 5.0 UVB Mini Compact Fluorescent bulb (13W). Both lamps are on from 6am-9pm. Really the temp fluctuates depending on the temp inside my house which is between 72-76, typically. I made a humidity box that has Zoo Med Terrarium Moss that I spray down with filtered water to keep damp. 25% off the flooring is sectioned off with Kaytee Timothy Hay and the rest is Lugarti Natural Reptile Bedding. Keeping fresh water accessible daily and just planted Lugarti Terrarium Grass

Here are some of my initial questions to start of with, hoping you guys can help

1. What should a typical 6-12 month old Leopard Tortoise shell feel like?
2. Right now he's eating romaine, spring mix, dandelion and kale. What are the best (EASIEST to find) plants for him. Prefer that I am able to get his food from the regular grocery store I shop at (Jewel).
3. How often should I be adding this calcium powder to his "salad"?
4. Do I need to be feeding him anything other than fresh plants?
5. Is there a way to figure out a more accurate age?

I've included a few photos of my little guy (or gal)- First salad at home and a couple photos from after his first soak and cleaning (with a soft wet wash rag).

HOW can I upload a video?

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Hi Jenni

 

[Gillian M]

Hi @Jenni and a very warm welcome to the forum.

What a cute little tort! GOD bless.

Please give your tort a daily soak in warm water, so as to avoid dehydration as well as pyramiding. That is, particularly, if you live in a dry climate.

And read the "Beginners Mistakes" Thread. Do not hesitate to ask ANY question when in doubt.

Your cutie is very young, but one cannot tell the age of a tort unless one knows the date of birth of the tort. Too bad.

 

[Gillian M]

By the way, do you have any pics of your tort's enclosure?

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. We could converse for two hours, but I don't have that much time right at the moment. Most of your answers, and a bunch more info that you should know about is contained in these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
Skip the text in this one and just skip to the food list:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

I've got some bad news for you: Most pet stores sell products that are useless, over-priced and sometimes dangerous. Further, most breeders think these are desert animals and start them far too dry, which sometimes kills them weeks or months later. Hopefully, we can help you over come any set backs caused by these two facts.

Read those threads, but I'll answer your questions here too:
1. Carapace should be pretty rigid. Plastron should have a little give to it, like a plastic butter tub lid, but it should not feel spongy.
2. Grocery store foods are not great and fail to meet their needs. The diet should be mostly weeds, leaves succulents and flowers. Its all in that thread I linked above. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole, but use lots of variety. Cilantro, collard, mustard and turnip greens, italian dandelion, etc…
3. With grocery store foods, calcium is important two to three times a week. Just a tiny pinch and mix it all in. If you start feeding better foods, calcium supplementation becomes less critical. I typically offer it once or twice a week. Either way, its always a good idea to leave a cuttle bone in the enclosure, so that they can self supplement when the urge strikes them.
4. This answer is in the link I put in above.
5. The only accurate way to know the age is to know the hatch date. If the egg tooth was still present when you got your tortoise, that would be an indicator that it was less than 6 weeks old.

Please feel free to question any of this and ask for more explanation.

 

[Jenni]

By the way, do you have any pics of your tort's enclosure?

Thanks everyone and good morning! I will check out these links... I'm just so paranoid about him getting sick or not eating enough. Just need to make sure I know what's going on.

I did go out to Whole Foods last night and grab some collard, turnip and mustard greens to mix in with the romaine, kale and dandelion.

With me leaving the house at 630a and not getting home til 430p each day it's really hard to gauge how much he has consumed since everything shrivels up... here are some pictures of his enclosure.

 

[Jenni]

Hello and welcome. We could converse for two hours, but I don't have that much time right at the moment. Most of your answers, and a bunch more info that you should know about is contained in these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
Skip the text in this one and just skip to the food list:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

I've got some bad news for you: Most pet stores sell products that are useless, over-priced and sometimes dangerous. Further, most breeders think these are desert animals and start them far too dry, which sometimes kills them weeks or months later. Hopefully, we can help you over come any set backs caused by these two facts.

Read those threads, but I'll answer your questions here too:
1. Carapace should be pretty rigid. Plastron should have a little give to it, like a plastic butter tub lid, but it should not feel spongy.
2. Grocery store foods are not great and fail to meet their needs. The diet should be mostly weeds, leaves succulents and flowers. Its all in that thread I linked above. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole, but use lots of variety. Cilantro, collard, mustard and turnip greens, italian dandelion, etc…
3. With grocery store foods, calcium is important two to three times a week. Just a tiny pinch and mix it all in. If you start feeding better foods, calcium supplementation becomes less critical. I typically offer it once or twice a week. Either way, its always a good idea to leave a cuttle bone in the enclosure, so that they can self supplement when the urge strikes them.
4. This answer is in the link I put in above.
5. The only accurate way to know the age is to know the hatch date. If the egg tooth was still present when you got your tortoise, that would be an indicator that it was less than 6 weeks old.

Please feel free to question any of this and ask for more explanation.

Okay so I was going to leave this part out for a couple reasons (1. I'm still very upset about it and 2. I just don't want to talk about it.) BUT I just read your "bad news" about these tortoises dying weeks or months later. This is not my first tortoise. I had a little 4 month old leopard named "Duke".

Duke died just a couple weeks after I got him (from the same store) which was this past Monday.... Within 36 hours he stopped eating, became lethargic and ultimately died during the car ride to take him in to get checked out. No respiratory issues. They did tell me he felt lighter than he should have. I didn't know that he was a "weak eater" until I showed video of him eating and they told me he should have been eating more vigorously. The video I showed him was the first video I took, the day I got him home. He was weak from the get go and I had no idea, I assumed he was fine because I left plenty of fresh food for him and he would nibble throughout the day, each day.

I called the store several times over the couple weeks to ask lots of questions because I wanted to make sure I was doing everything correctly and all the while I suspected nothing could be wrong. His shelled seemed to be getting softer... but I also didn't realize that he was practically starving. Once I got this new guy home and watched him eat I was in shock. Duke NEVER had that type of strength. He just nibbled, slowly.

So. As I stood there at their counter trying to hide my tears, they told me I could pick out a new one, that they were going to replace him for me. They felt I did nothing wrong. I wasn't prepared. I hadn't thought at any point I'd be leaving my house with Duke and returning with another. SO here we are, a few days later, and I have this new little peanut that I'm terrified of.

Btw, here are some pictures of my first baby- Duke. RIP little angel

 

[Tom]

Okay so I was going to leave this part out for a couple reasons (1. I'm still very upset about it and 2. I just don't want to talk about it.) BUT I just read your "bad news" about these tortoises dying weeks or months later. This is not my first tortoise. I had a little 4 month old leopard named "Duke".

Duke died just a couple weeks after I got him (from the same store) which was this past Monday.... Within 36 hours he stopped eating, became lethargic and ultimately died during the car ride to take him in to get checked out. No respiratory issues. They did tell me he felt lighter than he should have. I didn't know that he was a "weak eater" until I showed video of him eating and they told me he should have been eating more vigorously. The video I showed him was the first video I took, the day I got him home. He was weak from the get go and I had no idea, I assumed he was fine because I left plenty of fresh food for him and he would nibble throughout the day, each day.

I called the store several times over the couple weeks to ask lots of questions because I wanted to make sure I was doing everything correctly and all the while I suspected nothing could be wrong. His shelled seemed to be getting softer... but I also didn't realize that he was practically starving. Once I got this new guy home and watched him eat I was in shock. Duke NEVER had that type of strength. He just nibbled, slowly.

So. As I stood there at their counter trying to hide my tears, they told me I could pick out a new one, that they were going to replace him for me. They felt I did nothing wrong. I wasn't prepared. I hadn't thought at any point I'd be leaving my house with Duke and returning with another. SO here we are, a few days later, and I have this new little peanut that I'm terrified of.

Btw, here are some pictures of my first baby- Duke. RIP little angel

I hate having to go down a path of potentially bad news, but I feel that overall it is better for people to understand what is going on. Do you have any info about how these babies were started as hatchlings? How often were they soaked, and what type of substrate were they on? Here is a thread explaining what typically happens. I can't be sure this is your case yet, but its sounding more and more like it:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

By contrast, here is how it should be done:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

These two threads will arm you with information. Hopefully this info will help you figure out more about what is going on and what to do about it. It really bothers me when someone new comes to the hobby with all their enthusiasm, and a willingness to spend the money to do it "right", and then they source their new family member from a pet store or breeder that is still following the old, wrong info. Its frustrating and heart breaking for everyone involved, but for some reason the word just doesn't seem to be getting around fast enough or reaching far enough.

I hope your second baby makes it through, but if it doesn't, at least you'll know why, and know that its not your fault. You'll also know what questions to ask of the next source you find. I would hope that when the time is right, you'll go educate the pet store too. Many times they will argue or simply dismiss the bringer of this news, but you will plant a seed. If they know what they did wrong and why they've lost your business, and if enough people come through the door saying the same thing, they will eventually have to listen, or go out of business. They might not accept this new info from someone they perceive as "new" to the hobby compared to their own vast experience, but someone has to be the first person to tell them about this and get that ball rolling.

 

[Jenni]

I hate having to go down a path of potentially bad news, but I feel that overall it is better for people to understand what is going on. Do you have any info about how these babies were started as hatchlings? How often were they soaked, and what type of substrate were they on? Here is a thread explaining what typically happens. I can't be sure this is your case yet, but its sounding more and more like it:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

By contrast, here is how it should be done:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

These two threads will arm you with information. Hopefully this info will help you figure out more about what is going on and what to do about it. It really bothers me when someone new comes to the hobby with all their enthusiasm, and a willingness to spend the money to do it "right", and then they source their new family member from a pet store or breeder that is still following the old, wrong info. Its frustrating and heart breaking for everyone involved, but for some reason the word just doesn't seem to be getting around fast enough or reaching far enough.

I hope your second baby makes it through, but if it doesn't, at least you'll know why, and know that its not your fault. You'll also know what questions to ask of the next source you find. I would hope that when the time is right, you'll go educate the pet store too. Many times they will argue or simply dismiss the bringer of this news, but you will plant a seed. If they know what they did wrong and why they've lost your business, and if enough people come through the door saying the same thing, they will eventually have to listen, or go out of business. They might not accept this new info from someone they perceive as "new" to the hobby compared to their own vast experience, but someone has to be the first person to tell them about this and get that ball rolling.

Ugh.... I don't know what to do....the tortoise came from a dry set up with no water bowl and no humidity.

 

[Tom]

Ugh.... I don't know what to do....the tortoise came from a dry set up with no water bowl and no humidity.

If that is the case, and if the tortoise was only soaked once a week, or something similar, then there is a very good chance that the kidneys have been damaged and nothing can make this baby survive. Some of them make it, and some don't. All you can do is try. Give them the best conditions possible, and hope for the best.

 

[Jenni]

If that is the case, and if the tortoise was only soaked once a week, or something similar, then there is a very good chance that the kidneys have been damaged and nothing can make this baby survive. Some of them make it, and some don't. All you can do is try. Give them the best conditions possible, and hope for the best.

Okay so this is what I left for him this morning and this is what I came home to. He's sleeping, which he seems so do a lot. I'm not sure how to gauge if he's eating enough. In the shop I noticed he was being fed pellets, should I be buying something else until he gets used to the plants?

 

[Yvonne G]

get rid of the straw and use a VERY moist substrate. soak your baby in a bowl he can't climb out of for at least a half hour every day. keep him warm and humid without a nighttime drop in temp. make sure he can get out of the light (hiding place). 85F degrees overall.

 

[Jenni]

Okay. This is the rest of his enclosure... I do spray down the substrate end daily.

 

[Jenni]

get rid of the straw and use a VERY moist substrate. soak your baby in a bowl he can't climb out of for at least a half hour every day. keep him warm and humid without a nighttime drop in temp. make sure he can get out of the light (hiding place). 85F degrees overall.

We are outside now soaking. The temp is 86 and sunny, there's some humidity...

 

[Jenni]

My son is out here eating fruit, is it safe for the tort to try some strawberry? Or not at all?

 

[Taylor T.]

It's not really a good idea. They cannot digest the sugar in the fruit, and it can also cause a parasite bloom.

 

[Jenni]

Ok

 

[Jenni]

I'm hoping this link works...This is my little guy. Just recorded this a few minutes ago. I was hardly applying any pressure at all to his underside. Thoughts? Comments?

 

[Ramsey]

I'm hoping this link works...This is my little guy. Just recorded this a few minutes ago. I was hardly applying any pressure at all to his underside. Thoughts? Comments?

Hi Jenni,

Welcome. Looks like you got some good advice above. I too had similar situation as yours when I got my first Leopard.

I watched your video and it looks like the carapace is in good shape. Not sure about the plastron, but it should be on par with the carapace.

Did you mention how heavy your baby is in grams?

Even though you will need to make a few adjustments with your enclosure, I like the creativity.

One thing I wouldn't do is let the cat near the tortoise.

 

[Ramsey]

One other note, I just realized the topic of the thread. Yes, the shell can get soft, fast, when things go south at this size. That's exactly what happened to my first leo.

We went to soak her one day and she was like a sponge. Whereas the day before wasn't as bad.