Can a tortoise get sad? :-(

Micky 49

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Hi I just got a tortoise, I found him in the street and he was run over, his shell was cracked and bleeding, but don't worry he or she not sure is doing fine now. Eating like a maniac. But it is making funny sounds, I think I'm not sure it sounds like a clacking sound or sometimes a hissing sound. So my question is can tortoise get sad or angry and how would you know. Thanks ;)
 

Anyfoot

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Hi I just got a tortoise, I found him in the street and he was run over, his shell was cracked and bleeding, but don't worry he or she not sure is doing fine now. Eating like a maniac. But it is making funny sounds, I think I'm not sure it sounds like a clacking sound or sometimes a hissing sound. So my question is can tortoise get sad or angry and how would you know. Thanks ;)
Hi Micky and welcome.
They can definitely get angry. I'll let the experts help you out.

For now I would post some pictures of your tort and its injury so you can receive the appropriate advice.

Good luck, and a good save BTW.
 

JoesMum

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Both clicks and hisses are normal. The hiss is more to do with breathing air out quickly when a tort pulls his head in rathe than anything else.

Torts become withdrawn and stop eating when they're being bullied or things are not right. From what you said, your little guy has had a rough time, but eating isn't a problem :)

As for anger, they head-butt/ram other torts to tell them to get out of their area. Unfortunately they also use this technique to woo females so sometimes it's impossible to tell!
 

Tom

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Could be a sign of respiratory infection too.

Where are you?
What species?
What are your four temperatures? Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low?
What heating and lighting equipment are you using?
What are you feeding it?
 

Yvonne G

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Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

'Sadness' and 'anger' are human emotions. Tortoises don't have human emotions. They get stressed and afraid and maybe protective of their space, but not anger or sad or lonely.
 

Anyfoot

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Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

'Sadness' and 'anger' are human emotions. Tortoises don't have human emotions. They get stressed and afraid and maybe protective of their space, but not anger or sad or lonely.
So if 2 torts are invading each other's space, eyeballing each other and being vocational with each other causing stress levels to rise to the point where battle commences, at the point it turns into a battle, this is still not considered out of anger because everything else has failed?
What about happy, is there such thing as a happy tort?
 

ascott

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So if 2 torts are invading each other's space, eyeballing each other and being vocational with each other causing stress levels to rise to the point where battle commences, at the point it turns into a battle, this is still not considered out of anger because everything else has failed?
What about happy, is there such thing as a happy tort?

Yes, that is correct. Remember as Yvonne said, the emotion of sadness and anger are human.

We humans put our feelings onto a creatures behavior instead of seeing what they are doing as reactionary for their survival....sad and angry are simply emotions and serve very little purpose in actual survival...

A tortoise who has someplace safe to rest, sun, hang out....has food sources, water source and maybe a little sexual action from time to time would be what we humans equate to "happy"...but that in all actuality is just life....just my take.
 

Anyfoot

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Yes, that is correct. Remember as Yvonne said, the emotion of sadness and anger are human.

We humans put our feelings onto a creatures behavior instead of seeing what they are doing as reactionary for their survival....sad and angry are simply emotions and serve very little purpose in actual survival...

A tortoise who has someplace safe to rest, sun, hang out....has food sources, water source and maybe a little sexual action from time to time would be what we humans equate to "happy"...but that in all actuality is just life....just my take.
Thanks ascott.
Glad you didn't say they could be happy. Happy and sad go hand in hand.
So basically, I've spent time,money and effort making my enclosure and my torts dont give a damn. :D. Joking.
 
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ascott

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Thanks ascott.
Glad you didn't say they could be happy. Happy and sad go hand in hand.
So basically, I'm spend time,money and effort making my enclosure and my torts dont give a damn. :D. Joking.

See, now you just displayed happiness, annoyance and humor all in one posting....good work human...:p
 

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Saying that animals don't have a given emotion is just as anthropomorphic as saying they do.

We don't know what they feel.

We have named our emotions. We can deduce that animals feel similar emotions. We can guess that the happiness or pleasure an animal feels is similar in nature to what we feel.

So who decided that a tortoise can feel (their equivalent of our) pleasure or pain...but not (their equivalent of our) happiness or sadness? Depression is sadness. We know animals get depressed.
 

ascott

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Saying that animals don't have a given emotion is just as anthropomorphic as saying they do.

We don't know what they feel.

We have named our emotions. We can deduce that animals feel similar emotions. We can guess that the happiness or pleasure an animal feels is similar in nature to what we feel.

So who decided that a tortoise can feel (their equivalent of our) pleasure or pain...but not (their equivalent of our) happiness or sadness? Depression is sadness. We know animals get depressed.

I beg to differ....in the true sense of the word of depressed, which is an emotion and not a physical sensation......there is no proof that they get depressed, but it is again proof that humans force our definitions on animals behaviors.....there have been stories that animals will get "depressed" when their human dies...well, actually when the human dies the routine of the day stops...that behavior can have an affect on an animal for awhile until they develop a new routine...and on those few instances where an animal also dies, it is due to dehydration and not depression...a dog is a pack animal and if their pack changes they will wait for it to resume to the normal routine....simple as that....no therapy session needed, no anti depressants needed....not the same as people who are depressed....not at all.

Also, pleasure and pain are not hand in hand....pain is a physical sensation that is caused by injury====unless you are speaking of an human emotion which can also include emotional pain, which is completely different than physical pain....pleasure is also an emotion and not a physical sensation..there is a difference. Happiness and sadness are both emotions and not physical sensations....
 

Rue

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I was using 'depressed' to refer to a longer-term, or on-going sadness and not as 'depression' or anything that borders on mental illness (or requires pharmaceuticals). Dehydration is also a physical condition. This complicates the basic concept.

Again, we can't know exactly what an animal feels, we can only extrapolate that they may feel what we feel - or something similar.

I - and tortoises - are diurnal animals that require sunshine.

If I go outside on a beautiful sunny day...I feel happy. It might not obviously show. I might not smile or do a happy dance, but I can identify that feeling as happy.

If I go outside on a cloudy, rainy day...I feel sad. Just a basic emotion. If it rains for weeks on end, my sadness will intensify.

I am comfortable in assuming that a tortoise might also feel happy in the sun and sad on a cloudy day - even if they don't show added behaviours that might 'prove' it more convincingly. Beyond that basic emotional response...who knows?

Anyway...time to make a coffee run. My morning coffee makes me happy. ;)
 

ascott

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I was using 'depressed' to refer to a longer-term, or on-going sadness and not as 'depression' or anything that borders on mental illness (or requires pharmaceuticals). Dehydration is also a physical condition. This complicates the basic concept.

Again, we can't know exactly what an animal feels, we can only extrapolate that they may feel what we feel - or something similar.

I - and tortoises - are diurnal animals that require sunshine.

If I go outside on a beautiful sunny day...I feel happy. It might not obviously show. I might not smile or do a happy dance, but I can identify that feeling as happy.

If I go outside on a cloudy, rainy day...I feel sad. Just a basic emotion. If it rains for weeks on end, my sadness will intensify.

I am comfortable in assuming that a tortoise might also feel happy in the sun and sad on a cloudy day - even if they don't show added behaviours that might 'prove' it more convincingly. Beyond that basic emotional response...who knows?

Anyway...time to make a coffee run. My morning coffee makes me happy. ;)


I agree...humans have emotions related to humans and defined as so....not equal to animals and their natural behavior....this is not to say that animals are any less important nor any less necessary...just yet another species...just as humans are....I hope you enjoyed your coffee....I on the other hand find no pleasure in coffee...it has always smelled as what I imagined dirt would taste like....;):rolleyes:
 

Rue

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No no! Coffee tastes much better than dirt...

I still remember the last time I was tossed from my horse (years ago)...I had a big mouthful of it. Serves me right for landing face down in the arena with my mouth wide open (musta been yelling on the way down)...
 

Big Charlie

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I don't think they get sad like people do. They take whatever happens to them and never think "why me?" They may feel cold and wet when stuck in the rain but the moment the sun comes out, they forget about how they were feeling previously. I think they live in the moment. When kept in less than ideal conditions, they may react in ways that make them look sad or angry to us, but it is somewhat different from how we feel. When Charlie drags the lawn furniture all over the yard, he seems like he is on a rampage - I can't know what makes him do that. They are motivated to do things that feel good, like bask in the sun and munch on grass; that is part of their survival instinct.
 

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I do not think tortoises have emotions like sadness, joy, anger, etc but I believe they have more basic "moods". Contentment, distress, boredom, aggression. They aren't really feelings as much as they're survival instincts. If we project human emotions onto tortoises, they'd be a lot more mundane. For example, eating food while sitting in a safe room that is at a comfortable temperature seems like an average boring thing for a human, but for a tortoise it would be a situation where 1. there is no stress due to fear of predators 2. there is no discomfort due to high or low temps 3. there is an ample supply of food and water. Leaving nothing to be desired, the tortoise is content and nothing could be better. Therefore, by human standards, the tortoise can be considered to be "happy". :)

The only thing that gives me doubt is the fact that tortoises aren't very "expressive" OR social so we can't possibly know for sure what they're capable of feeling. Birds are a different story. They can't comprehend some complex situations but they can empathize on a very basic level (necessary for the survival of the flock in the wild) and experience some basic emotions like anger, joy, excitement, impatience, and loneliness. Similar brain size, but birds have more emotional capacity...that we know of. So who knows.
 

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Actually- we CAN determine animal emotions. As humans, we are good at observation and correlation. If we consistently see an animal show a set of specific signs, then observe the subsequent behaviors, we can make a darn good assumption about the mood of the animal. This is how we know when dogs are enjoying themselves, bears are being curious, deer are nervous, a horse is hurting, and so on.

We can also look at the parts of the brain associated with emotions, much as we do with those parts associated with scent and vision, and get a sense for how important or nuanced that aspect is.

Are we perfect at it? Nope. Are there a lot of philosophical aspects to emotion we can debate endlessly? Yep.

I think it is pretty safe to say that tortoises can experience certain emotions or sensations- feeling good, feeling bad, discomfort, pain, hunger, fear, curiosity, loneliness (to some degree, and seems to vary by species and individual). We can argue about the terms used, or if they are emotions or something else.

Another element of the discussion would be something like 'do they feel loyalty or attachment to people', to which I would argue 'not really to people, but definitely associate certain people to food and cares.
 

jockma

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Don't some species travel together to scavenge for food? I read that redfoots can travel in groups and feast together. If that is the case then the tortoise would likely have an instinct to "bond" or at least "trust" certain other tortoises in order to survive. Dogs, cats and birds tend to perceive or treat humans like we're the same or similar species which is what allows us to bond so well (projection of instinctual bonding on one another), tortoises may be the same. The human may just actually be an inexplicably huge and weird-looking tortoise that is excellent at finding food and shelter, according to the tortoise. Whether that is an actual bond or "loyalty" is up for debate but I believe certain species, or maybe even all tortoises in general, have more complex social structures and social comprehension than they're often given credit for.
 

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