Breeding Two Different Species of Tortoises Together

deadheadvet

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Would someone please tell me the benefits of purposely breeding a Leopard Tortoise to a Sulcata?
There is no genetic benefit I can come up with to this. Are we now getting into designer tortoises like the designer mutts dog breeders have created? This is not the same thing to me as breeding Pardalis babcocki to Pardalis pardalis. These are subspecies of Pardalis so I have no issue with that.
 

dmmj

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Money, no other reason to be honest with you.
 

Tom

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People have cited: "Novelty, its neat, pretty, interesting", and "because you can…"

I don't agree with any reason I've ever heard and I do what I can to discourage the practice whenever possible.

About the leopards: I do wish that people with true SA leopards would only breed them to other SA leopards, but I don't control the world...
 

G-stars

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Have never agreed with that practice. Some people state that it's ok because turtles do it in the wild... To answer your question @Tom yes they do go for more.
 

deadheadvet

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Not sure. How do you even know if they would be fertile?
 

Speedy-1

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I would try to discourage it , but if someone will pay money for it some one else is sure to do it ! :(
 

dmmj

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Do these hybrids sell for more than the "regular" species?
I have seen the hybrid listed for $1,500 on King Snake and at the fairs and Expos. So money seems like a pretty good reason to me.
 

Lancecham

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Someone on Fauna Classifieds just had a hatchling Sulcata x Leopard cross a for sale for $750.
 

Speedy-1

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Oh good ! We best get started making up stupid names ! You know , like Chiweenie , or Labradoodle . So would they be "Sulpards" or "Leocatas" ?

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wellington

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Oh good ! We best get started making up stupid names ! You know , like Chiweenie , or Labradoodle . So would they be "Sulpards" or "Leocatas" ?

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They call them leopracata I think is the right spelling.
Unfortunately there a really stupid people in the world. Those that mix species and those that pay big bucks for them. It's one of my biggest pet peeves. Like the OP mentioned. All the mixed breeds/mutts that are going for big bucks. It's a mutt nothing else. Yes, mutts are great dogs, but why do people have to purposely breed for them when there are many accidental ones sitting in shelters. They do it because idiots will pay for it. Money is truely the root of most if not all evil. It's sad, very sad.
 

Tom

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I have seen the hybrid listed for $1,500 on King Snake and at the fairs and Expos. So money seems like a pretty good reason to me.

That's crazy. I wouldn't take one for free.
 

Rue

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I have to agree with the 'designer' breeding - that there is no point to it. They do it with birds too.

I also don't understand all the people who bash the good breeders of purebred dogs, for example, but then go spend more than what a well-bred purebred would cost - on a puggle (or whatever mix they choose).

At the very least of it...they wouldn't have their puggle if there weren't two purebreds to begin with!
 

wellington

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I have to agree with the 'designer' breeding - that there is no point to it. They do it with birds too.

I also don't understand all the people who bash the good breeders of purebred dogs, for example, but then go spend more than what a well-bred purebred would cost - on a puggle (or whatever mix they choose).

At the very least of it...they wouldn't have their puggle if there weren't two purebreds to begin with!
I don't think it's the good breeders doing the mix breeding. Cuz a good breeder would never think of doing that. I want breeders of dogs at least, to pay a yearly breeding license fee of at least $500.00 a year. If you don't get the license and you breed dogs, the fine would be thousands. I'm sickened of all the homeless dogs and sickened by all the backyard breeders breeding mutts. Maybe a license to breed an animal is the answer to end bad breeding. The bad breeders wouldn't want to pay.
 

Rue

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No...it's not the good breeders (thank goodness). They wouldn't. We've shown dogs for years...(not at the moment though...and we don't breed). Lots of good, dedicated breeders out there.

I have also thought of a breeder license to curb animal breeding. I think - much like having a car - you need to take a driving course, pass a test and pay for a license...you should have to do something similar in order to breed animals. Take a class...pass a test...and pay a fee.

This won't stop serious breeders, but it will put brakes on backyard breeders.

I was out walking our mini-Dachshund in the city many years ago. A car honked at me. Stopped in the middle of the street - and asked if I wanted to breed her to their male. I said, no thank you, she's spayed. His reply? "Too bad, dumb thing to do...think of all the money you coulda made".

Er...that's NOT what I consider a good, well-thought out, breeding program...:confused:
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Dog analogy does not fit the conversation. Mixing breeds of one species (dogs) is not the same as mixing species. There are no subspecies of leopard tortoise, but distinct geographical expressions that can be sorted out with genetic analysis, to some extent, that is the basis for knowing there are no subspecies within Stigmochelys pardalis. It appears the phenotype traits associated with some leopards are as much captive breeding selection of what can be found in the wild, and which is narrower than the wild phenotype.

Back on point, Hybridizing species does occur in the wild, likely not to the extent that people do it with captive animals. Tortoise species seem to have a longer history of stability than kingsnakes, so it is a stronger resistance that it may work as well.

Some of the hybrids are beautiful (eye of the beholder and all). But I agree wholly with the general sentiment of the thread so far. I'd choose not to creat or advance hybrids and breed true geographic variants as possible even within one wide ranging species.

When I had a big mixed pen of T.c. subspecies they sorted themselves out pretty well, but it was apparent that an eastern Male did 'hit it' with some Florida females. Juiced Jersey boys and Florida bikini babes make nice looking box turtles, people actively sought them from me in subsequent years. I split them all up after that.

The rules of taxonomy change as does the scrutiny of how those rules are applied, and ever better tools reveal new species and lump others together. Within my life time this happened with orangutans, so there are inter-grade/hybrid orangs out there now. Even with not knowing the taxonomy of these apes, it might have been better to breed those that looked more like each other, then mix them. That would have saved alot of heart ache once it was actually sorted out with the now large zoo population of those apes.

Best not to fool with all this if ostensibly you tell yourself you are 'doing it' for the conservation of the species and you're not some tortoise flip-tard.
 

Rue

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Dog breeding does fit the conversation. You can talk about keeping a species pure...or you can talk about keeping a breed pure. Do we want/need hybrids? Do we want/need 'designer' mixed breed animals? And should 'just anyone' be able to produce more animals? Should there be a reason outside of 'I feel like it' for producing more animals?
 

Yvonne G

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Dog breeding does fit the conversation. You can talk about keeping a species pure...or you can talk about keeping a breed pure. Do we want/need hybrids? Do we want/need 'designer' mixed breed animals? And should 'just anyone' be able to produce more animals? Should there be a reason outside of 'I feel like it' for producing more animals?

You are missing the point. Dogs are all one species - canis lupus familiaris. Not all tortoises are one species. You have Testudo, Geochelone, and on and on.
 
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